KittyCatS! Community Forum

I have taken the time to think ahead a few steps as I would in a Chess Game...and all I keep coming up with is the KC community in Check Mate. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so..With summer here, the selling is already slow. We would already have been in the 'bust' part of the seasonal Boom to Bust cycle. I think this "fire sale" spiral we see picking up speed is short sighted and ultimately will hurt Everyone more than help and keep us in the downward spiral longer.

That being said, this is the pattern I see growing uncomfortably fast:
1. we are hard up for kibble after spending way to much on special editions and not getting enough out of them to support the regular kitty breeding

2. we lower prices to sell...and even sell what i call "box'o'kitties" but it wont cover even the cost of feeding. Some wont care because they are not really interested in developing better cats. They will just move to another market to earn lindens. Unfortunately, for those who really do like KC, the transient breeders will be long gone while those left will be battling the public expectation of 100L 9T kitties which we cannot sustain if we want to stay current

3. When sanity prevails once more, and we are cleaning up the mess in the Fall when things pick up all those Good Kitties were sold for less than the cost of a gen started will come back to haunt us each time we are pairing cats and think of what we had but sold off. Ohh the frustration of trying to rebuild what we may have thoughtlessly broken down.

It doesn't have to be this way, in my opinion. This time can be taken to build up and update our catteries. Purge Purge Purge til all we have is over very best. And most importantly, we shouldn't make it profitable for anyone to canabalize the market by flooding it with kitties selling for so low that it wouldnt cover food, let alone other costs in KC breeding. I laughed the other day when I saw a 'sale' so cheap it was embarrassing...I said "Oh my! This person must not think much of the work they have done" Then i looked at the pedigree and realized They didnt do Any work - They bought nice kitties for peanuts, bred them and are cashing in on the Real breeder's work.

I recently had the sad experience of having someone get frustrated with me because I would not trade an 8T Latte Salty Mega with tons of great traits for a 5T gen kitty just because it had nice ears. It was like the person expected sellers to be so desperate that we will take anything...or so stupid that we dont know what they are worth. Either way, I was stunned and angered by the feeling that all these desperation sales are creating vultures who are out there picking over our bones.

Sorry...I would, and have, Menageried many nice 8 and even sometimes so-so 9T kitties before i sell them for embarrassingly low prices that only serve to undermine the market for longer and not reflect the work I put into KC. Those fast lindens will be gone faster than we can rebuild. So before we buy those "100L 9T Bargains" maybe we should ask if it will be a bargain in the long run or just another nail in our Going Out of Business sign My opinion is "Neither a buyer Nor a seller be". Everyone has principles but the only ones that count are the ones reflected in our Choices. If I have to breed just for myself, for the pleasure and feeling of accomplishment in what I am trying to make, then I will do that - But i rather keep or menagerie before i degrade their quality.

(putting on my asbestos undies...fire away)

So glad I'm not the only one that sees this disturbing trend. I breed mostly for my own pleasure. I breed what I like. I breed special kittys for friends and family. I spend months getting the kitty I want. Sometimes I sell some of my overflow or I used to. I would just as soon menagerie them as give them away for nothing. I have no problem buying nicely traited kittys and paying what they are worth..but I avoid 100 box sales like the plague.

(06-01-2014 01:53 PM)punkin Panthar Wrote: [ -> ]So glad I'm not the only one that sees this disturbing trend. I breed mostly for my own pleasure. I breed what I like. I breed special kittys for friends and family. I spend months getting the kitty I want. Sometimes I sell some of my overflow or I used to. I would just as soon menagerie them as give them away for nothing. I have no problem buying nicely traited kittys and paying what they are worth..but I avoid 100 box sales like the plague.

Hi Punkin! Well then you are doing a service for the community you like! Thank you

Hi Sena! I think you missed the point of my post. What I was saying is that both buyers and sellers Need Each Other...Without the hard work, expense and effort breeders put into kittycats, there would not be the choices there are now...That would be a loss to all. And no, I do not sell my 9T kitties for 100L, but I Have been known Many Many times to Give or Lend an excellent kitty to a friend who may be trying to get a trait. So for me its Not all about the money. But since you dont know me, you would have no way of knowing that. But thank you for the permission not to sell them like that. There are many kinds of breeders here and RL...to each his own. It is my preference to breed for the preservation and improvement of animals here and RL. We just have to remember that if not for the work of other wonderful breeders, you would be hard pressed to get any of the kitty furs you mentioned liking. It would be hit or miss, which is not good for alot of us who know what we like and rather not have to work on a traited kitty like we have to on a genesis - like groping in the dark

I dont recall having drawn any lines between "real breeders" and any other group. I was referring to the real breeder of the kitty being sold. Anyone can put two cats together to make a box. These days all you need is 200L to get 2 kitties and Voila! Instant kitty. Still, a skilled breeder who studies a pedigree and applies genetic principles and can put the right cats together can have wonderful results...including uncovering new traits. But even those must be fed. That was my point. And it costs as much to feed a high quality kitty as a mediocre one. So why shouldnt we be able to breed better kitties for the buying public to choose from? But that cannot happen, and some of our wonderful traits will be lost in the massive gene pool as they become diluted and not replaced.

By the way...I do understand your love of bengals...I am a sucker for Coppers most of all. I have several that I breed but are my forever kitties. I wouldnt sell them for any amount of Lindens. Have a wonderful day

Miss PrettyPoison

(06-01-2014 03:20 PM)Sena Nansen Wrote: [ -> ]I breed KittyCats because I love them. I tried a couple of other breedable cats before KittyCats with horrible results. each time I boxed up what I had & gave them away.

the great cats KittyCats have & the wonderful customer service have kept me doing it for almost 3 years. I don't do it to make money. I suck at selling, anything. I do it because I love it. I have a bit of spending money, a budget if you will, to spend on this. I don't go over.

right now, I only have 8 breeding kitties. not uber traited with the latest & greatest, just kitties I love. a 4 trait kitty with the traits I want is much more valuable to me than a 9 trait with ones I don't like. when the limited editions come out, I get a pair. I look at what's available & choose the one I like best. there have been times where I've gotten the "rare" one. but that doesn't matter to me. I'd rather have a color I like even if it's not the "rare" one (like the blue purrball).

I love bengals. I was lucky. one of the limited editions I got had copper hidden. after months of trying to get the traits I wanted into a copper, I bought ones that had what I wanted. I was looking for a mate for kitty whose partner had aged out when I found a black. except for the fur, it had no other traits. now I have more blacks with traits I love. I've bought cream lynxs & salt & pepper to try to coax out hidden furs in the limited editions.

am I not a "real breeder" because I don't breed the way you do? am I not a "real breeder" because I don't view the market as you do & sell my kitties? am I a bad person because I buy kitties to breed with mine? am I hijacking someone else's work because I buy their kitties THEY have for sale? where would "your" market be without breeders like me? please, tell me how I am "degrading" KittyCats?

I'd rather give my kitties away to someone who is just starting or give one away with traits someone else is looking for.

you don't like 9 trait kitties for 100$L? then don't sell them for that. easy.

I am in Kittycats as a hobby.

I breed as a hobby.

I sell as a hobby. I like keeping a shop, I like deciding which kitties I want to sell to other homes.. Its fun.

I don't expect my kitty sales to pay for my kibble. I never have. I only buy or breed the kitties I can afford to feed.

Since I don't expect the income from sales to balance my expenses on cats and kibble, the prices I set have *nothing* whatsoever to do with needing money to keep up my cats. In a business, costs and income should balance. In a hobby, there is no such expectation.

If you interpret the prices I set on my cats as being driven by some short term need for kibble or some desire to make up what I spent on special editions, you couldn't be more wrong.

Assuming that all of us in Kittycats, or that all of us who care about Kittycats, share your business perspective, is assuming way too much.

Surely we all have our own reasons for being here, for breeding what we breed, and offering the kitties we set for sale at whatever prices we set.

And every reason, I think, is as valid as every other one.

Hi Petronilla! Your point is well taken and you expressed it very well and courteously. There are as many reasons people make boxes as there are people making them. I guess one of the perspectives I see is that of a breeder who has multiple breeding projects underway to build certain traits into various furs. That's not an easy undertaking and here as in RL the costs are seldom if ever equal to the cost of producing those lovely kitties and discovering/passing on the new traits. But still many make the effort, which is why there is such a thing as a well traited kitty available easily rather than finding one as rarely as winning lotto lol

Thank you for your input!

This isn't a new "trend" at all and it's always been this way. Cats with wonderful stats for as low as 100L have been part of KC for as long as I can remember; my first cat was 150L and I thought he was pretty awesome with his pink fur and ody fire&rain eyes among other traits, at the time he was considered well-endowed stat-wise.

To be honest, I probably wouldn't have gotten into breeding KC if I hadn't found this little boy for the price I did in a time where I never spent an exorbitant amount of money in-world; 100L and under was all I'd spend on anything because I wasn't online much. I also wouldn't have been able to convince my friends to play KC with me either if it weren't for this shop or the few others we found around The Borough. Obviously now is a different story regarding spending money in-world for me personally.. Just giving a positive anecdote about the benefits of cats for lower prices! Why? Because in the end, you aren't going to change the vending habits of others. Might as well look at the positive aspects!

I think there's a lot of assumptions being made about those who sell for particular prices and deeming their cats being "degraded". Ultimately, it's up to each person to determine what they wish to set their cats at and they'll sell it for that no matter what's said here.

Some people are here as investors to breed and support their SL and RL lives, some enjoy the thrill of the social aspect of auctions and seeing their breeding projects desired at said auctions, some are here to hopefully land some first discoveries through the wondrous cat gacha with every holiday, some are collectors who love snagging extras from each holiday to offer for newcomers to purchase later, some people are here to share this hobby with others and don't really care about the money aspect as long as they can make this hobby for accessible to others, whether through low prices or giveaways, etc..the list goes on and on. There's all types of people in KittyCatS and I don't think anyone is purposely trying to "degrade" their breeding project results with such prices mentioned in your post.

Hello Deer Thistle! Happy to hear from you. I am looking and maybe the term "degrade" is being misunderstood...another interesting thing about online communication is the lack of 'face to face', which often leads to misreading. The term "degrade" by definition includes: "to lower in character or quality, to reduce in amount, strength, intensity, etc. or in reference to topography the wearing down of a surface by nature". By profession, I am a College English teacher and have taught online courses a few times. So I do understand the problems of online discussions and connotations some words have...and trust me, when English was not a student's first language it made for some Very lively discussions LOL.

While the terms may or may not be clear, one this is - No one is going to get rich breeding kittycats on SL. It's wonderful that some might have deep enough pockets to not have to try to balance the output with the cost of our hobby. I like to breed what I like to see. I am happy to pay a price for my kitties that is fair to the person who took the time and trouble to keep their traits current and create gorgeous combinations. I appreciate when I get one that I see the patterns and intent of each pairing. Sometimes when I see it, I try to continue what the breeder started and add a few ideas of my own. And my kitties are not expensive. In fact, I gift and lend many very nice ones when i see a friend who might be able to do something with it that I just dont have time to do. Its exciting to look and see what new ingredients someone else has added to my 'stew' lol.

I guess my concern is that i see so many stores closing, and cats being sold by the box. I cant believe that by fast and cheap for a short term gain will help anyone in the long run and will just keep us in recovery longer than need be and hinder the overall progress and availability of new traits or worse yet, the loss of some older ones. Do i breed kitties to make money or get rich? LOL No...I dont even breed RL showdogs for that because when you do it right there is no profit hahaha. This is a misconception about my opinion here, so let me jump in with everyone else who is saying they dont breed for lindens. But the reality is that the hobby will be unaffordable to many if we cant even defray the cost of feeding our "project kitties". That would be a loss to people like me who rely on and appreciate several breeders' efforts to produce well traited kitties for which I feel its fair to pay a Fair Price. Me, I am taking this time to update my cattery and keep the best i have until things stabilize. And I know I am not the only one with these concerns because Numerous people, whether they dare say it outloud or not, have said the same things I have and have agreed strongly when I express my concerns. I sell relatively few kitties, and I sell at a more than fair price that i feel is comfy for the buyer and that i can live with. And there are times when a buyer really wants a kitty but doesnt have the price, in which case I am Always open to negotiation when i see someone is really interested - as i have seen many of us are. Hmmm maybe I am still not explaining this right...In any case, thank you for your input.

(06-01-2014 10:08 PM)PrettyPoizen Resident Wrote: [ -> ]Hello Deer Thistle! Happy to hear from you. I am looking and maybe the term "degrade" is being misunderstood...another interesting thing about online communication is the lack of 'face to face', which often leads to misreading. The term "degrade" by definition includes: "to lower in character or quality, to reduce in amount, strength, intensity, etc. or in reference to topography the wearing down of a surface by nature". By profession, I am a College English teacher and have taught online courses a few times. So I do understand the problems of online discussions and connotations some words have...and trust me, when English was not a student's first language it made for some Very lively discussions LOL.

While the terms may or may not be clear, one this is - No one is going to get rich breeding kittycats on SL. It's wonderful that some might have deep enough pockets to not have to try to balance the output with the cost of our hobby. I like to breed what I like to see. I am happy to pay a price for my kitties that is fair to the person who took the time and trouble to keep their traits current and create gorgeous combinations. I appreciate when I get one that I see the patterns and intent of each pairing. Sometimes when I see it, I try to continue what the breeder started and add a few ideas of my own. And my kitties are not expensive. In fact, I gift and lend many very nice ones when i see a friend who might be able to do something with it that I just dont have time to do. Its exciting to look and see what new ingredients someone else has added to my 'stew' lol.

I guess my concern is that i see so many stores closing, and cats being sold by the box. I cant believe that by fast and cheap for a short term gain will help anyone in the long run and will just keep us in recovery longer than need be and hinder the overall progress and availability of new traits or worse yet, the loss of some older ones. Do i breed kitties to make money or get rich? LOL No...I dont even breed RL showdogs for that because when you do it right there is no profit hahaha. This is a misconception about my opinion here, so let me jump in with everyone else who is saying they dont breed for lindens. But the reality is that the hobby will be unaffordable to many if we cant even defray the cost of feeding our "project kitties". That would be a loss to people like me who rely on and appreciate several breeders' efforts to produce well traited kitties for which I feel its fair to pay a Fair Price. Me, I am taking this time to update my cattery and keep the best i have until things stabilize. And I know I am not the only one with these concerns because Numerous people, whether they dare say it outloud or not, have said the same things I have and have agreed strongly when I express my concerns. I sell relatively few kitties, and I sell at a more than fair price that i feel is comfy for the buyer and that i can live with. And there are times when a buyer really wants a kitty but doesnt have the price, in which case I am Always open to negotiation when i see someone is really interested - as i have seen many of us are. Hmmm maybe I am still not explaining this right...In any case, thank you for your input.

I'm just replying to your concerns, I've been around KittyCats for some time and the market has always been the same with stores closing and fire sale cats.

These issues aren't new, this was the same a year ago and this happened during the summer of 2012. The market fluctuates during the summer due to less "big holiday releases". I personally believe most people spend less time on SL during the summer months (myself included).

I would say that your concerns are valid, but this has happened before with fire sales, stores closing, etc, it's the nature of an old game. KittyCats is a large community, it'll still be around and people will still want to buy cats until Callie stops making them.

I know plenty of breeders who make enough lindens from cat sales/auctions to support their KittyCats hobby and make some pocket money. There's even a select few who make enough lindens on the secondary market to have a decent second income.

Between the years 2012-2013, I know some people didn't agree with the way I ran my shop or how I sold cats, but I made enough lindens off of KittyCats for fairly decent pocket money. It all depends on how you play the market, know what KittyCats and collectors are desired, and what strategy to employ on how you sell your kitties. It takes lindens to make lindens, but some of the best breeders in KittyCats know how to support their hobby through secondary sales.

Mind you, this is not everyone. You have to take a little time to analyze the secondary market in order to fund a cattery to be self-sufficient.