Help me sort something out please?

[Patti Peregrine]

Hello everyone,

I will admit, I am still trying to get my head around all this, regarding recessive traits, etc., etc., and have read the forums, but after a while my eyes sort of go bleary and my head swims from information that seems ways over my head. I understand that all cats have a hidden fur, but what confuses me is to exactly pinpoint who is responsible. For example, today I got:

? New Born Kitten

Fur: American Shorthair - Red & White Tabby
Eyes: Odyssey Sorbet (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Frisky
Ears: Curious
Whiskers: White (Shape: Mysterious)
Size: Normal

MOM: Vicky
Fur: Chateau Cat - Pink & White No. 1
Eyes: 18-carat Gold (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Flair
Tail: Frisky
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Mysterious)

DAD: Sinatra
Fur: Genesis - Domino
Eyes: Azure (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)

Now neither parent has a Red & White Tabby in the background, so I know that it is a hidden coat. However, how do I pinpoint if it comes from mom or dad? If it is a mystery, how do I solve this mystery?

As far as why I put Sinatra with Vicky, I have no good explanation, it just seemed like a good idea at the time. I might add this is their third pairing with all previous offspring between the 2 being domino, which I know is dominant. I guess I had figured by breeding the domino cat, I stood a chance of getting a retired coat, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Thanks in advance to anyone who responds .

[Kayleigh McMillan]

Hi Patti

It is hard to tell this for sure because I just saw the Pink & White didn't find it's exact place in the dominance order list here »
Otherwise I would say it must have been the hidden of your DAD.
But since it isn't sure if maybe Pink & White is dominant over the Red & White it might need deeper pedigree investigation to figure this out.
Maybe you can attach a screenshot of the online pedigree?

[Patti Peregrine]

(04-05-2013 09:57 AM)Kayleigh McMillan Wrote:  Hi Patti

It is hard to tell this for sure because I just saw the Pink & White didn't find it's exact place in the dominance order list here »
Otherwise I would say it must have been the hidden of your DAD.
But since it isn't sure if maybe Pink & White is dominant over the Red & White it might need deeper pedigree investigation to figure this out.
Maybe you can attach a screenshot of the online pedigree?

Thanks Kayleigh,

Here are screenshots of the pedigree. The Pink & White is in the second column of the dominance chart. Almost directly next to the Red & White fur. Some days I think maybe I am close to figuring this stuff out.

Vicky - Mom


Sinatra - Dad

[Kayleigh McMillan]

I suspect it is the hidden of Sinatra
Because the other pedigree shows it is either hiding the Siamese choc or what the choc is hiding and this is Burmese Platinum or "better = more recessive".
Since Rosa gave her shown fur the Aby Black Silver from that line is definately not hiding.
I don't know for sure it was Sinatra but I consider that a safe bet :-)

P.S. I know for sure it is the hidden of Sinatra on second view because the Siamese Choc is recessive to the Red & White and also Recessive to Russian White so Mom is hiding the Siam Choc or Burmese or what the Burmese is hiding.
Should it be so the Pink & White is recessive to the Red & White it is also a possibility the Pink & White is hiding.

[Patti Peregrine]

(04-05-2013 11:32 AM)Kayleigh McMillan Wrote:  I suspect it is the hidden of Sinatra
Because the other pedigree shows it is either hiding the Siamese choc or what the choc is hiding and this is Burmese Platinum or "better = more recessive".
Since Rosa gave her shown fur the Aby Black Silver from that line is definately not hiding.
I don't know for sure it was Sinatra but I consider that a safe bet :-)

P.S. I know for sure it is the hidden of Sinatra on second view because the Siamese Choc is recessive to the Red & White and also Recessive to Russian White so Mom is hiding the Siam Choc or Burmese or what the Burmese is hiding.
Should it be so the Pink & White is recessive to the Red & White it is also a possibility the Pink & White is hiding.

Thank you so much Kayleigh. Now, let me ask you this or anyone else who wants to jump in and answer. If I know know that Sinatra has this coat Red & White tabby and I put a Red & White female with him, does that better my chances of getting another red & white.

So, am I understanding you correctly, that Vicky who is a Pink & White is hiding a Pink & White? I think I end up getting more confused then understanding.

I am not sure I will ever understand all this completely, but I have never had so much fun breeding a breedable. This community is by far the best there is!

[Tad Carlucci]

Try this mental model.

"Let's make a box." (That is, we have a 'box' and let's rez it in-world for the first time.)

Take an envelope. Label it "Fur". Mom and dad each have one already.

Reach into Mom's envelope and pull out one of the two slips of paper there. Make a copy and put it back.

Reach into Dad's envelope and put out one of the two slips of paper there, too. Make a copy of it and put it back.

Compare the two copies. Let's say one reads "Balinese Seal Lynx" and the other reads "Red Tabby". Check Saga's charts. Red Tabby is "dominant". Write "Red Tabby" on the "Fur" envelope for our new box. Put both slips into the envelope.

Repeat for all nine traits. When all nine envelopes (eye color, eye shape, etc.) are done we have a box.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

(04-05-2013 01:09 PM)Patti Peregrine Wrote:  Thank you so much Kayleigh. Now, let me ask you this or anyone else who wants to jump in and answer. If I know know that Sinatra has this coat Red & White tabby and I put a Red & White female with him, does that better my chances of getting another red & white.

So, am I understanding you correctly, that Vicky who is a Pink & White is hiding a Pink & White? I think I end up getting more confused then understanding.

I am not sure I will ever understand all this completely, but I have never had so much fun breeding a breedable. This community is by far the best there is!

I was affraid it would confuse you maybe more sorry for that
Here a couple of facts which might help to understand it better:

Cats can only have one hidden trait for each of the 9 traits there are and that trait comes either from mom or dad.
Each of both parents gives traits to the offspring and thus if the offspring shows one trait for example the fur of mom or what mom's hidden fur is it must hide the shown or hidden fur of dad.
If dad's shown fur is more dominant than the fur of the offspring the dad must have passed his more recessive hidden fur as a hidden in the OS.
You can trace that back in his pedigree and compair that with the dominance order docs.
This is in the fur example but it works this way on each trait.
Hidden traits can never be more dominant than the shown traits so they have to be more recessive.
What the hidden traits are you uncover frequently via breeding and pedigree research.
Since it is impossible a more dominant trait can hide behind a shown trait this eliminates a lot of possibilities.

As for your question if you pair the cat which is hiding the Red & White with a Red & white and if this would increase the change to get a Red & White the changes are indeed higher because you know that cat is hiding the Red & White.
Tricky is though if you pair it with a Red & White you don't know it is quite possible through generations suddenly a total surprise hidden shows up from that Red & White you obtained or found.
I hope I could clear things up a bit

EDIT I am unsure what Vicky is hiding this can only be found out via breeding I gave an indication of the possible hiddens but since I don't know the cat I can't tell exactly what she hides sadly.

[Serena Stroikavskoi]

Hi Patti,

Don't know if it will help or not. I posted this on my blog a couple of months back, but it has some pictures that might help you understand a little better.

The Kitty Pages - Traits

[Patti Peregrine]

(04-05-2013 01:34 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Try this mental model.

"Let's make a box." (That is, we have a 'box' and let's rez it in-world for the first time.)

Take an envelope. Label it "Fur". Mom and dad each have one already.

Reach into Mom's envelope and pull out one of the two slips of paper there. Make a copy and put it back.

Reach into Dad's envelope and put out one of the two slips of paper there, too. Make a copy of it and put it back.

Compare the two copies. Let's say one reads "Balinese Seal Lynx" and the other reads "Red Tabby". Check Saga's charts. Red Tabby is "dominant". Write "Red Tabby" on the "Fur" envelope for our new box. Put both slips into the envelope.

Repeat for all nine traits. When all nine envelopes (eye color, eye shape, etc.) are done we have a box.

Thank you Tad. The way you explained it makes perfect sense. Between your response, Kayleigh's, and my friend I finally have it understood. What I was thinking is that each cat had a hidden fur like a starter cat. So, I was totally confusing myself on what the offspring would be. I didn't realize that the "hidden" trail is not really truly hidden if the cat is not a starter. From my understanding, only a starter cat has completely unknown traits and that with a regular kitten, the hidden traits are traits from the pedigree. I am happy to report, the lightbulb is finally on. (I think)

---

(04-05-2013 01:55 PM)Kayleigh McMillan Wrote:  

(04-05-2013 01:09 PM)Patti Peregrine Wrote:  Thank you so much Kayleigh. Now, let me ask you this or anyone else who wants to jump in and answer. If I know know that Sinatra has this coat Red & White tabby and I put a Red & White female with him, does that better my chances of getting another red & white.

So, am I understanding you correctly, that Vicky who is a Pink & White is hiding a Pink & White? I think I end up getting more confused then understanding.

I am not sure I will ever understand all this completely, but I have never had so much fun breeding a breedable. This community is by far the best there is!

I was affraid it would confuse you maybe more sorry for that
Here a couple of facts which might help to understand it better:

Cats can only have one hidden trait for each of the 9 traits there are and that trait comes either from mom or dad.
Each of both parents gives traits to the offspring and thus if the offspring shows one trait for example the fur of mom or what mom's hidden fur is it must hide the shown or hidden fur of dad.
If dad's shown fur is more dominant than the fur of the offspring the dad must have passed his more recessive hidden fur as a hidden in the OS.
You can trace that back in his pedigree and compair that with the dominance order docs.
This is in the fur example but it works this way on each trait.
Hidden traits can never be more dominant than the shown traits so they have to be more recessive.
What the hidden traits are you uncover frequently via breeding and pedigree research.
Since it is impossible a more dominant trait can hide behind a shown trait this eliminates a lot of possibilities.

As for your question if you pair the cat which is hiding the Red & White with a Red & white and if this would increase the change to get a Red & White the changes are indeed higher because you know that cat is hiding the Red & White.
Tricky is though if you pair it with a Red & White you don't know it is quite possible through generations suddenly a total surprise hidden shows up from that Red & White you obtained or found.
I hope I could clear things up a bit

Between you & Tad, I fully understand now. I was making it harder for myself then needed be. I was thinking every cat had a "hidden trait" like a starter cat besides the parents traits so I couldn't understand how anyone could ever with any predictability get the cat they wanted. I am happy to report, I believe I have a better grasp on it now. Again, I love love this community. I have done many breedables in the past, and I have never ever found such a friendly, helpful, supportive community then this one.

---

(04-05-2013 02:38 PM)Serena Stroikavskoi Wrote:  Hi Patti,

Don't know if it will help or not. I posted this on my blog a couple of months back, but it has some pictures that might help you understand a little better.

The Kitty Pages - Traits

Oh, thank you so much Serena. I will check it out.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

I'm so glad to hear that Patti I love this community as well I think it is the best ever