Pedigree Anonymity (2)

[LadyBrighid Resident]

Just to clarify my earlier comment, I'm not trying to call anyone a cheater or otherwise, it is my personal opinion that if something is limited to one per avatar, then you have one chance to get the item you're after, be it in kitty breeding or otherwise.

As with any decision that someone makes, there are consequences, some positive, some negative, some neutral. If you choose to incorporate alts into your breeding practices, you should also be willing to accept the results of that.

If you do not want to be contacted on an alt for whatever reason there are ways to handle that also. This isn't Facebook, KC isn't going to give away your phone number, address and share all of your friends and their comments with the rest of the world; it's just your name on a pedigree saying you made something great.

(02-05-2013 12:22 AM)Piraiyah Novikov Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 11:49 PM)LadyBrighid Resident Wrote:  Golden Rule kind of thing here; what comes around, goes around. Try to cheat the system, the system will eventually catch up to you.

I totally agree here. This hasn't been mentioned enough. An awful lot of us is tired of foul play, and I think that's what's actually reflected in the poll results so far. And this new transparency will protect us from a lot of it in the future.

[Deer Thistle]

(02-05-2013 01:01 AM)LadyBrighid Resident Wrote:  As with any decision that someone makes, there are consequences, some positive, some negative, some neutral. If you choose to incorporate alts into your breeding practices, you should also be willing to accept the results of that.

But there was nothing anyone 'accepted' on an alt as this feature was only implemented at 6pm today. No one knew that their alts would one day be revealed and the privacy of an alt is something taken quite seriously on Second Life, whether the person chooses to breed on this alt in-world while focusing on designing for their store in peace without the distractions on their main or any other reason.

And I'm all for having breeders and owners shown, I think it's a wonderful concept and I wish we had this sooner, but there really needs to be a method to hide these alt names if that individual so chooses. If you see a consistent alt as the breeder and the owner as someone else (who happens to generally be the same person) in the pedigree, it's not hard to put two and two together, even for past breedings that no one needed to 'accept the results' to because this feature was nonexistent prior to today.

[penfold83 Resident]

(02-04-2013 11:49 PM)LadyBrighid Resident Wrote:  No disrespect intended here, but it's one per avatar, which in a round about way means that it's also intended to be one per person. If you choose to circumvent that by using alts, you have to live with the consequences of that choice.

Golden Rule kind of thing here; what comes around, goes around. Try to cheat the system, the system will eventually catch up to you.

Again, no disrespect to anyone with this comment, just my personal opinion.

(02-04-2013 10:28 PM)Sanura Snowpaw Wrote:  Also there are some people who prefer to bred on alts OR in the case of the special babies that were limited to one per avatar I know I and others would give our breeding cats to alts until each got one as a small workaround to the one per avatar. I would personally NOT want people to know who those alts are as they are private and used for other business and personal things but now either I get to NEVER sell cats from those lines (which I already have done) or hey there is Sanura's alt *shrugs*

Edited to make this clearer. I have bred on an alt a few times, KittyCatS is now showing that avatars name which before now has always been kept quietly hidden behind the scenes because the cats went back to me and showed me as owner. Now it is quiet obvious that I bred the parents I own the babies so that second avatar who so called "bred" that kitten who I now own as well, is me. Honestly had I known this would have came out I would have NEVER used alts to bred as I do NOT want people to know who they are for my own personal reasons and it is no ones business.

cheating really ? kinda strong words there lady.... but yes i agree with your edited part

[Igor Novikov]

(02-05-2013 01:10 AM)deerylou Resident Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 01:01 AM)LadyBrighid Resident Wrote:  As with any decision that someone makes, there are consequences, some positive, some negative, some neutral. If you choose to incorporate alts into your breeding practices, you should also be willing to accept the results of that.

But there was nothing anyone 'accepted' on an alt as this feature was only implemented at 6pm today. No one knew that their alts would one day be revealed and the privacy of an alt is something taken quite seriously on Second Life, whether the person chooses to breed on this alt in-world while focusing on designing for their store in peace without the distractions on their main or any other reason.

And I'm all for having breeders and owners shown, I think it's a wonderful concept and I wish we had this sooner, but there really needs to be a method to hide these alt names if that individual so chooses. If you see a consistent alt as the breeder and the owner as someone else (who happens to generally be the same person) in the pedigree, it's not hard to put two and two together, even for past breedings that no one needed to 'accept the results' to because this feature was nonexistent prior to today.

I can see the anonymity point.

Maybe KC could have it turned on from now on only? That is, adding "Unknown" to all breeders prior to this date. Because I really think this setting is too important to toss away, as it is very useful.

Having the option to turn it off would just make me suspicious if anything. At least that's my immediate reaction.

[penfold83 Resident]

(02-05-2013 12:02 AM)Mirsoul Resident Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 11:05 PM)penfold83 Resident Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 10:54 PM)Mirsoul Resident Wrote:  Hmmm...I honestly have not run into any "elitist" types....there is snobbery no matter where you go. So to name or not to name will not quell that. For me I like to know where my kitties came from, and I like to see where they go. I guess my question for those who don't want their name on their work is why? Like I said privacy is moot since you obviously sell and auction...why would you NOT want your name on a line you developed and worked on?

like the reasons i posted in here and in this thread http://kittycats.biz/forum/showthread.php?tid=7381 and what sanura has posted too.. do you really want this ?

Again Pen...maybe it's because I don't use alts..but I honestly don't understand. And if someone can look me up and ask me about a specific trait that I may or may not have, for a specific price...again that is up to us as contributors to the secondary market to accept or to counter offer. I like the option and think that the tranparency is a good thing.

Its not just about alts... and how can you counter offer when the said person has made a deal with whom you bought your kitty from, there not gonna tell you lol

[Deer Thistle]

(02-05-2013 01:35 AM)Piraiyah Novikov Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 01:10 AM)deerylou Resident Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 01:01 AM)LadyBrighid Resident Wrote:  As with any decision that someone makes, there are consequences, some positive, some negative, some neutral. If you choose to incorporate alts into your breeding practices, you should also be willing to accept the results of that.

But there was nothing anyone 'accepted' on an alt as this feature was only implemented at 6pm today. No one knew that their alts would one day be revealed and the privacy of an alt is something taken quite seriously on Second Life, whether the person chooses to breed on this alt in-world while focusing on designing for their store in peace without the distractions on their main or any other reason.

And I'm all for having breeders and owners shown, I think it's a wonderful concept and I wish we had this sooner, but there really needs to be a method to hide these alt names if that individual so chooses. If you see a consistent alt as the breeder and the owner as someone else (who happens to generally be the same person) in the pedigree, it's not hard to put two and two together, even for past breedings that no one needed to 'accept the results' to because this feature was nonexistent prior to today.

I can see the anonymity point.

Maybe KC could have it turned on from now on only? That is, adding "Unknown" to all breeders prior to this date. Because I really think this setting is too important to toss away, as it is very useful.

Having the option to turn it off would just make me suspicious if anything. At least that's my immediate reaction.

Suspicious of what though? I don't understand.

[Igor Novikov]

(02-05-2013 01:41 AM)deerylou Resident Wrote:  Suspicious of what though? I don't understand.

This is related to market/auction ethics, and part of the reason there has been a lot of fuss about this. There is ways which you can manipulate the market when noone knows who bred the cat in question. It can be using alts for bidding up the price on your own cats, or people selling other breeders cats on different markets..

Which is another reason to not include what has happened prior to today of course, as I don't believe it is very constructive to start riots or hunt down people who did this or that. (And there's always situations where things aren't what they look like.)

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

I'd like to throw in my 2 L$ here. There are a few concerns voiced that while I understand where they are coming from just want to point out another perspective. Sanura mentions a concern that having the breeder's named in pedigree will propagate an elitist attitude. I disagree and would like to offer this perspective; suppose you are a content creator and you have worked hard, perhaps using some prefab items and putting your own spin on them (an approximation of what breeding is to me)..then you are told of course you can sell these things but...once it leaves your shop, your name is no longer connected to it. If someone see's it and likes it, well, they have no way to know where it came from. How successful do you think your shop would be? Or perhaps you are an artist and you make beatuiful paintings..and they sell well but..you are not allowed to sign them?

As far as Pen's concern that being able to trace the original breeder of a new and high priced trait hurting the secondary market, well..what I have seen is that already goes on all the time. It may take a little detective work now, but word of mouth is a powerful thing, and also drives the market. I don't really see that having breeders names listed in pedigree will hurt the price of new traits. There will always be those who don't want to stand in line for a deal and will happily pay more to have it right away.

I like having both breeder and owner listed in the pedigree..and I think in the long run it will benefit the community as a whole. We need to think not just of ourselves and what we have done already but of the new breeders coming after us too.

I don't find it a problem that an Alt may be listed on some of my cats...I don't particularly use alts to breed in general, as to me that would just be too confusing. But I have heard some say it helps them keep projects organized etc. I see no problem with that at all. Many of us have alts we may use for other purposes in SL. If you are concerned perhaps create an Alt specifically for KC?

To wrap up I just want to reiterate, I belive unlocking the pedigree is one of the best things we can do for the community as a whole, and I approve of showing breeder names and owner names.

Hugs,
Noc

[penfold83 Resident]

Why do you really need too see the names really from this update ?

anyone with half a brain knows too ask who they bought there kitty from for a screen cap, simples and you make friends and contacts this way too.

---

(02-05-2013 01:59 AM)Piraiyah Novikov Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 01:41 AM)deerylou Resident Wrote:  Suspicious of what though? I don't understand.

This is related to market/auction ethics, and part of the reason there has been a lot of fuss about this. There is ways which you can manipulate the market when noone knows who bred the cat in question. It can be using alts for bidding up the price on your own cats, or people selling other breeders cats on different markets..

Which is another reason to not include what has happened prior to today of course, as I don't believe it is very constructive to start riots or hunt down people who did this or that. (And there's always situations where things aren't what they look like.)

Well first of if peeps did that, there really dumb too use a alt that any connection too them, peeps who might or do this would be more careful, and they still would make sure the cat is not tied too them, and in a auction you know who the new peeps are and not.... and for other breeders selling other peeps cats we can tell if they do this now with the old ped. kinda moot these me thinks

[Sanura Snowpaw]

(02-05-2013 02:01 AM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  I'd like to throw in my 2 L$ here. There are a few concerns voiced that while I understand where they are coming from just want to point out another perspective. Sanura mentions a concern that having the breeder's named in pedigree will propagate an elitist attitude. I disagree and would like to offer this perspective; suppose you are a content creator and you have worked hard, perhaps using some prefab items and putting your own spin on them (an approximation of what breeding is to me)..then you are told of course you can sell these things but...once it leaves your shop, your name is no longer connected to it. If someone see's it and likes it, well, they have no way to know where it came from. How successful do you think your shop would be? Or perhaps you are an artist and you make beatuiful paintings..and they sell well but..you are not allowed to sign them?

As far as Pen's concern that being able to trace the original breeder of a new and high priced trait hurting the secondary market, well..what I have seen is that already goes on all the time. It may take a little detective work now, but word of mouth is a powerful thing, and also drives the market. I don't really see that having breeders names listed in pedigree will hurt the price of new traits. There will always be those who don't want to stand in line for a deal and will happily pay more to have it right away.

I like having both breeder and owner listed in the pedigree..and I think in the long run it will benefit the community as a whole. We need to think not just of ourselves and what we have done already but of the new breeders coming after us too.

I don't find it a problem that an Alt may be listed on some of my cats...I don't particularly use alts to breed in general, as to me that would just be too confusing. But I have heard some say it helps them keep projects organized etc. I see no problem with that at all. Many of us have alts we may use for other purposes in SL. If you are concerned perhaps create an Alt specifically for KC?

To wrap up I just want to reiterate, I belive unlocking the pedigree is one of the best things we can do for the community as a whole, and I approve of showing breeder names and owner names.

Hugs,
Noc

I can understand and respect it when viewed that way, although I do think you having owned the parents of that baby x now owns shows you bred it just as well as having it show breed by.

I'll be honest the protocol thread from a few weeks ago (which is now gone) and how people reacted in there has very much so colored my view point on this and it is my fear that adding the bred by role will propagate that. I very well could be wrong and I honestly and sincerely hope I am unfounded in this fear.

I have also since than had new breeders come to me and saying "hey I bought both parents and bred this baby can I still sell this?" showing their fear that their kitten might be rejected because they do not own x amount of that line.

I do think breeders do deserve credit for what they have done by NO means am I trying to say that they aren't but I think adding bred by is just superfluous to what we already have.

As for alts I have my own reasons for having them, using them and wanting to keep them to myself and I think everyone deserves the same thing.

I am thrilled to see that I can look at a pedigree of a cat I bred and I sold or gave away at some point, seeing the offspring I had from that cat so I can track something back.

---

I have to add my own anxiety issues tend to make me worry about things more so than someone else might, I am well aware of that. But I do hope that people understand that I am speaking from my heart and the deep love I have for this community and that I honestly do want to see the very best for the community as a whole.