Fair Trade

[Tad Carlucci]

"A rising tide lifts all boats."

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

(01-15-2013 09:45 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  "A rising tide lifts all boats."

Thank you Tad, I REALLY like that!

[Giuliana Verrazzano]

(01-15-2013 04:52 PM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  

So my question is this. How do we come together as a community, embrace new breeders, and work together for the benefit of all?

I tried to follow the thread that Dimpz started and I'm grateful she expressed her concerns, clearly it was something many of us had asked ourselves, and probably many who never thought about it before, with the thread now do, I also think the thread somehow managed to "unlock" many things for many people and many of the contributions touch a very wide variety of issues, concerns, observations, critiques and whatnot in many different subjects which makes it hard for me to see a result. In my humble opinion, it needs to be broken down into separate threads to actually be able to have a specific, intelligent, healthy and productive discussion to reach a goal.

I will list my little contribution to answer the essence of Noc's post: "How do we come together as a community, embrace new breeders, and work together for the benefit of all?" I'm not over sensitive with critique when done with tact and with the aim to progress. I would love to hear some feedback and to be able to debate our suggestions to reach a goal.

1. Respect: without it you can't buy a pint of milk at the corner shop. Without it, you won't be able to even sell bread to the hungry.

2. In rl, in most countries at least, professions and services are subject to Law and in many cases below this law acts a Code of Conduct. I think it's only natural that we feel the need for one here. It cannot be a mandatory rule of course, because we have repeated to exhaustion the fact that everyone sells and does with what they own whatever they want. A Guideline, maybe? A set of suggestions or pointers to help us know what's the best for us and for all? Possibly collecting anonymous data from what the general public (not only us who read and reply on the forums) "feel" it's correct, acceptable and we abide to the results? I also think of the possibility of having different guidelines for market selling and for auctions. I won't develop this idea any further because I'm not the most qualified to suggest the methods to effectively collect information to obtain a satisfactory result, but I'm sure in due time someone with these capabilities can correct me or suggest something more effective to capture the info required if this idea is accepted.

3. Price check and advisory: one of the most common questions from new users in the KittyCats Addicts group is "Is this a good kitty? How much is it worth?" I've been breeding for almost a year now and I still feel as if it was yesterday when I asked myself the same questions. Back then I joined the "Price Check" group where people helped in around 70% of the times, of course this all depends of many factors (the same that haunt us in any other SL event: timezones, group chat closed, people online but afk etc) however I noticed how the response was less and less over a few months to the point there was no answer at all towards the end when I decided to leave the group because of it. I still often read people asking in group chat where can they go to have help pricing their kitties. The fact that this topic is not accepted in the Addicts group makes this subject a though one to deal with oneself and there's no where to go to get specific help which might end up leading to "I have no idea how much it costs but I want to sell it so I'll just put a low price so I increase my chances" That rule of thumb of 100L$ per trait is long lost and forgotten, although I try to stick to it, we know the prices have dropped massively in the past few months. So my suggestion is: Create a pricing system, one we won't discuss in the Addicts group chat but we can mention it's existence without breaking the rules of the group charter and refer everyone there to check it out. Somehow I think we all could benefit from it. I also think it has to be a constant work in progress that will evolve and change with the market response and with the different characteristics the new traits bring (e.g. exclusive or rare traits). One of the common bits of conversation I have with breeder friends is "Hey, G, how much do you think I can ask for this?" when the truth is, I'm lost in the woods as well I value a lot the kitties I have spent months breeding, but I am one of those who see them as part of the project, once they have played their part they can and should go to someone else's cattery to do the same for them, it breaks my spirit to see months of work being under priced due to the fact that many others are doing it, so it's ok. (it's not!)

4. Breeding Classes, teaching tools, aids, etc. Educate, train and retrain. I think most of this has been covered thanks to the kindness of the experienced people who has set classes up. I haven't been able to attend to a breeding class in a long time (the last one was from Malicia, the others are out of my online hours) but I heard many good comments about them and I feel that considering the information is given on voice, it only leaves videos as the option to record the information and be able to share it. The idea of making youtube videos is absolutely fabulous. I don't know how simple it is to make them, but I've seen so many on youtube that it makes me think it's not that hard. I can't wait to see this!

I think it is only natural that posts like this come up every now and then to make us all spare some time to think: -What can I do to improve this? -How can I make this more enjoyable for everyone and therefore for myself? I cannot wait to read what others have to say about this! I am sure we can come up with bright suggestions and ideas to make something that is already good, even better!

Giulia

[Dimpz Morane]

(01-16-2013 04:53 AM)Giuliana Verrazzano Wrote:  [quote='Nocshadue Balbozar' pid='22161' dateline='1358290363']

So my question is this. How do we come together as a community, embrace new breeders, and work together for the benefit of all?

Thanx to both Noc and G here - I think this the very crux of what I am trying to get to here - but expressed so thoughtfully

Yes I feel guidelines would a fantastic idea because like G mentioned many are lost/confused as to selling their kitties. Just the other day I saw on the bid board a new fur - with a remarkable low starting bid - which I felt was of some concern ( and before I get jumped on by to others about pricing) It does worry me to see kitties undervalued.

Yay Penfold - brill idea about Youtube Vid and Yay to Sanura for offering to do it!
Great post from Saga re: peoples's combined efforts help formulate her charts, was very interesting hearing how you started these charts.

So basically - I would love for us as a community to pull together for the benefits of us all, maybe its wishful thinking but - the majority of us can try

[Petronilla Whitfield]

I suspect that any set of guidelines established by the secondary market rather than by KittyCatS will be more harmful to the community than otherwise.

I very much value the community here. Saga’s work in collecting and publishing trait information and the generosity of all those who share information has set a very high bar in the area of mutual cooperation and respect.

Let’s consider the issue of respect a little further. So far no one has argued against the notion that those who breed lines from starters deserve respect for their work and for the knowledge of kittycats that they have applied to that work. Everyone seems to be in agreement there. So far, so good. What about the work and knowledge of those people who resell cats?

If someone sells a cat she has bred and someone buys it, takes it to a widely attended auction, advertises it, and sells it for a better price, hasn’t that buyer also done work? Hasn’t that person put in time and effort to acquire knowledge of how the KittyCatS marketplace works, and applied their knowledge ? Haven’t they done a service in helping the traits in that cat be acquired by a breeder who might do something useful with them, when the cat and its traits might otherwise have sat, unused, in a shop?

Some have said that the better course of action would have been for the potential buyer to educate the breeder about how to sell the kitty for a higher price. Suppose, though, that the breeder finds marketing boring? That she doesn’t want to be bothered to put in the time and energy needed to market a cat properly? Perhaps she would rather expend less effort in learning about the marketplace and in advertising, and is happy with a lower price, one proportional to the modest effort expended in marketing, and is perfectly happy to have a middle-man resell her cats?

I am one of the people who finds marketing tedious. If someone buys a cat from me and resells it at a higher price, good for them, I say.

It seems to me that the issue of guidelines is not about respect for breeders—which seems to be well-established already—but about *disrespect* for resellers, and for those who are interested in both breeding and marketing. In all fairness, I think that *all* types of knowledge and effort in the secondary market place deserve respect: breeding, auctioning, figuring out trait placement, teaching, marketing, selling, and reselling. Attempting to promote the valuation of some types of knowledge and effort as virtuous while encouraging people to consider other types of knowledge and effort as shady and dishonest seems to me to be among the most divisive things that could be done to a community.

[dakillakm Resident]

That's a very good point as well Petronilla, marketing and selling is an exhausting endeavor at times! I also agree that any attempt to enforce codes or similar efforts might serve to hinder the market rather than help in any meaningful way. In reality, how often do you see someone purely re-selling a cat that they had no hand in breeding at auction? Are the problems discussed in the protocol thread widespread and damaging enough to warrant "rules" or are they just a misunderstanding of people who choose to operate in the KittyCatS-verse with a different mindset. Definitely some good points.

[Giuliana Verrazzano]

I cannot avoid to notice that some of the opinions posted in the other thread have been answered here. I suggested a guideline and made it clear it cannot be a law or a forced rule to anyone for the reasons we have mentioned before but more a guide, a reference for new and even seasoned breeders to know what are the best practices. A totally and utterly voluntary "manual" for sellers who maybe have no idea where to start or how the market works. It would be nearly impossible to even pretend to reinforce a law or rules. To add my 50c about the things that were vented in the other thread I could say for example that I do not expect to see a full pedigree of cats owned by one same person for me to consider buying a cat, I also strongly believe that once you sell a cat, wih the price you agreed the sale on goes your rights and permission to do with it as the new owner wishes, but what I'm trying to achieve with my post in this other thread is to give an answer to Noc's question about how do we work together as a community and improve the experience for newcomers.All I can do is but make suggestions and have them down voted for approval. I wouldn't dare to pick the opinions posted on the other thread and base the guidelines on that

The question remains... How do we work together as a community, embrace new breeders and work together for the benefit of all?

[Serena Stroikavskoi]

I think as any community evolves just as in real life certain social rules follow and those that don't soon get disillusioned and leave. We've seen that recently with some that have already left. In any society you have your 'talents' and as already mentioned some have a talent for the strategy of breeding and some for selling. I would think like any good market we could utilize those talents instead of thinking bad of them. Hence if someone can market kitties by seeing the potential and sell them because they have a knack for the spam and advertisement. Go for it. As a seller I'm not going to sell my kitties below what I will accept. In auctions anything over that is a bonus.

Just like an in any open market roles need to be established. Not everyone can be a seller, then you have no buyers. Not everyone can be a buyer, cause then you have nothing produced to sell. People that can market, buy/sell, and go to auctions. Well maybe we need those too.

In the real world they often have the title of broker or market agent.

[Tad Carlucci]

It occurs to me, if you're serious about wanting to promulgate a code of conduct, it would be best to begin with the market makers, such as auctioneers, operators of markets offering bid boards, and others offering services to the larger kittycats community.

[penfold83 Resident]

(01-16-2013 04:17 PM)dakillakm Resident Wrote:  That's a very good point as well Petronilla, marketing and selling is an exhausting endeavor at times! I also agree that any attempt to enforce codes or similar efforts might serve to hinder the market rather than help in any meaningful way. In reality, how often do you see someone purely re-selling a cat that they had no hand in breeding at auction? Are the problems discussed in the protocol thread widespread and damaging enough to warrant "rules" or are they just a misunderstanding of people who choose to operate in the KittyCatS-verse with a different mindset. Definitely some good points.

I seen this only once in this past year, a person in a auction was biding against me, the cat went up too 5k and the person won it. The very next day the said person put this cat in a different auction... i bought it for 2k and smiled big time, i have not seen the said person do it again, i hope it was a lesson too them.

But like i say that's the 1st time i have seen this happen and hope never again.

but there should be no rule just simple VERY simple common sense, and hey if a new person try's too, very friendly let them know its kinda not the done thing ...

and ohh the protocol thread, i don't know why that did not die before page 3, seems it was hijacked and hey even a auctioneer has put a rule in there auctions because of this... really makes me laugh tbh.

But this is only my view on them matters