Newbie Q

[Nenya Eun]

Indeed, the blue Tabby can come from the mom or the dad or both.

Birthing the baby and breeding it back to the dad is definitely a good idea.

You'll still get "chances" to get a genesis fur (the visible one from the dad)
but you'll know for sure the future baby will hide a fur (at least blue Tabby
or more recessive).

Also, if they give you something more recessive, you'll know the mom hides
blue Tabby and also the fur the dad hides.

Nen

[CordeliaSloan Resident]

(12-02-2012 03:05 AM)Nenya Eun Wrote:  Indeed, the blue Tabby can come from the mom or the dad or both.

Birthing the baby and breeding it back to the dad is definitely a good idea.

You'll still get "chances" to get a genesis fur (the visible one from the dad)
but you'll know for sure the future baby will hide a fur (at least blue Tabby
or more recessive).

Also, if they give you something more recessive, you'll know the mom hides
blue Tabby and also the fur the dad hides.

Nen

Well this is the pedigree so far -

? New Born Kitten

Fur: American Shorthair - Blue Tabby
Eyes: Genesis Water (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)
Size: Normal

Version: 1.27
Owner: CordeliaSloan Resident
ID: 048e19ea-4f00-ccc1-260a-e71a789d7435
??????????????????????
MOM: Kiana
Fur: Genesis - Coco II
Eyes: Genesis Earth (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)

DAD: Meko
Fur: Genesis - Diamond II
Eyes: Genesis Water (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)
????????????????????????????????

And so, if I'm understanding how this works, then the Kitten has one countable trait? I'm almost inclined to think the coat may have come from dad ... but idk, lol. I will try breeding to dad though ... see what happens. But then gosh they are gaining love back really fast, lol.

[Tad Carlucci]

Yes, and a Gold Star for qualifying it as "countable".

What you've learned from this box:
* Mom carries a hidden (Recessive) fur of Blue Tabby Or Better
* Dad carries a hidden of Blue Tabby Or Better, as well
* Either Mom or Dad carries exactly Blue Tabby, but you don't know which.
* The box carries BOTH recessives: Blue Tabby and Blue Tabby Or Better

Breeding the box to her father will produce:
* Diamond II (50% odds)
* Blue Tabby Or Better (50% odds)

If Dad carries exactly Blue Tabby, you'll never see anything else.

If Dad carries Better (recessive) to Blue Tabby, split the Blue Tabby Or Better result.

* Diamond II (50% odds)
* Blue Tabby (25% odds)
* Better (25% odds)

IF .. and ONLY IF .. you see something OTHER than Blue Tabby from the box mated with her Dad you learn Mom carries exactly Blue Tabby, Dad and the box carry exactly whatever else it was you see, and NO OTHER fur is possible.

Meanwhile, Mom is idle. You'll have several choices. The best of those are
* Menagerie her to save L$
* breed to another starter, breed to something more recessive than Blue Tabby

Meanwhile, the Box and her Dad will be making boxes. Some of those will be males and some females. And there is the chance you'll get traits shown. If you goal is to produce more Blue Tabby, rather than discovering what might lie hidden there or proving out what Mom and Dad hide, keep an eye on those offspring boxes. If any shows a trait in addition to the fur you already have, AND shows Blue Tabby, you'll want to swap that box in, replacing the same-gender parent. That will increase your chances of producing multi-traited Blue Tabby .. BUT .. at the expense of tossing away hidden trait values. (This is called "Genetic Drift") So, you'll want to branch out the Blue Tabby line, mixing in stock from others, to keep improving the trait count and quality in the Blue Tabby line.

Wow! So many choices, right? Save your Lindens because that's why so many people have so MANY cats in their cattery!

[CordeliaSloan Resident]

Wow Tad! Lot's to chew on and digest there! And well, I've been breeding other breedables so the language may not all be exactly the same its sort of the same kind of stuff. and yes, I do want to see what these two starters might have for me. I really don't know enough about these cats and the potentials is something I'd like to explore.

Oh yea, far as breeding the mom, I had gotten other advice that suggested breeding to a Bengal? I need to go digging back and fidn the post that gave me the link to the post that covered all of this in much detail, lol. Thank you so much!

[CordeliaSloan Resident]

(12-02-2012 09:47 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Yes, and a Gold Star for qualifying it as "countable".

What you've learned from this box:
* Mom carries a hidden (Recessive) fur of Blue Tabby Or Better
* Dad carries a hidden of Blue Tabby Or Better, as well
* Either Mom or Dad carries exactly Blue Tabby, but you don't know which.
* The box carries BOTH recessives: Blue Tabby and Blue Tabby Or Better

Breeding the box to her father will produce:
* Diamond II (50% odds)
* Blue Tabby Or Better (50% odds)

If Dad carries exactly Blue Tabby, you'll never see anything else.

If Dad carries Better (recessive) to Blue Tabby, split the Blue Tabby Or Better result.

* Diamond II (50% odds)
* Blue Tabby (25% odds)
* Better (25% odds)

IF .. and ONLY IF .. you see something OTHER than Blue Tabby from the box mated with her Dad you learn Mom carries exactly Blue Tabby, Dad and the box carry exactly whatever else it was you see, and NO OTHER fur is possible.

Meanwhile, Mom is idle. You'll have several choices. The best of those are
* Menagerie her to save L$
* breed to another starter, breed to something more recessive than Blue Tabby

Meanwhile, the Box and her Dad will be making boxes. Some of those will be males and some females. And there is the chance you'll get traits shown. If you goal is to produce more Blue Tabby, rather than discovering what might lie hidden there or proving out what Mom and Dad hide, keep an eye on those offspring boxes. If any shows a trait in addition to the fur you already have, AND shows Blue Tabby, you'll want to swap that box in, replacing the same-gender parent. That will increase your chances of producing multi-traited Blue Tabby .. BUT .. at the expense of tossing away hidden trait values. (This is called "Genetic Drift") So, you'll want to branch out the Blue Tabby line, mixing in stock from others, to keep improving the trait count and quality in the Blue Tabby line.

Wow! So many choices, right? Save your Lindens because that's why so many people have so MANY cats in their cattery!

Ok lemme see if I understand what I think I understand -

Either mom or dad or both carry recessive Blue Tabby or either/both carry Blue Tabby exactly. (Does exactly mean only Blue Tabby and nothing else? )

If I breed the box back to dad.

1. If box comes back Blue Tabby with no other traits then the dad has nothing but the Blue Tabby and if I continue to breed that pair I will see nothing but Blue tabby.

2. If box comes back Diamond II or anything other than Blue Tabby then the Blue Tabby came from the mom and the coat that comes back will be the only thing I see from the dad?

3. If I want to keep the Blue Tabby coat and then add other traits then I need to watch the other boxes for other traits and then pair it with it's mom or dad ?

Ok lol ... Kiana and Meko are mom are the starters ... I got lalla from them ...
I breed Lalla with Meko and I get Blue Tabby with a traited tail and it's male then I would then mate Lalla with the new box and so on? (If I wanted to continue with Blue Tabby and breed in more traits?

Hmmm then I guess I could still test mom and dad with other boxes if I wanted to see if any other coats came out, huh? gah, LOl I have to see what kind of prim I can play with since I have other stuff to. LMAO

I do know the cattery is there if I want to send them in for points.

[Tad Carlucci]

(12-06-2012 07:48 PM)CordeliaSloan Resident Wrote:  Either mom or dad or both carry recessive Blue Tabby or either/both carry Blue Tabby exactly. (Does exactly mean only Blue Tabby and nothing else? )

There are only two possible cases.

* Mom hides Blue Tabby; Dad hides either Blue Tabby or something recessive to Blue Tabby.

* Dad hides Blue Tabby; Mom hides either Blue Tabby or something recessive to Blue Tabby.

Yes, I meant "exactly" to mean Blue Tabby and nothing else. Cats have two "fur genes". One you see, and one you don't. You can't see Blue Tabby on either parent. So, Blue Tabby must be the one you can't see on one (or both) parents. Since we're talking about starters, the odds favor only one parent hiding Blue Tabby; in which case, the other parent must hide something more recessive to Blue Tabby.

(12-06-2012 07:48 PM)CordeliaSloan Resident Wrote:  If I breed the box back to dad.

1. If box comes back Blue Tabby with no other traits then the dad has nothing but the Blue Tabby and if I continue to breed that pair I will see nothing but Blue tabby.

No. Dad could still have something recessive to Blue Tabby. If he does, the box also carries that recessive. So the odds are:

1) Dad's dominant (what you see) Diamond II ==> 1 in 2 (50%)

2) EITHER
2a) Blue Tabby 1 in 2 (50%) [Dad hides Blue Tabby)
OR
2b.1) Blue Tabby 1 in 4 (25%) [From box, hides Dad's recessive just like the box]
2b.2) Something recessive to Blue Tabby 1 in 4 (25%) [From both the box and Dad]. BTW: In this case the new box (recessive to Blue Tabby) will be "pure" .. what it shows is what it hides as well.

(12-06-2012 07:48 PM)CordeliaSloan Resident Wrote:  2. If box comes back Diamond II or anything other than Blue Tabby then the Blue Tabby came from the mom and the coat that comes back will be the only thing I see from the dad?

No. If the box comes back Diamond II you learn nothing. If the box comes back Blue Tabby you learn nothing.

If it comes back something recessive to Blue Tabby then the Blue Tabby is Mom's hidden fur. See above.

(12-06-2012 07:48 PM)CordeliaSloan Resident Wrote:  3. If I want to keep the Blue Tabby coat and then add other traits then I need to watch the other boxes for other traits and then pair it with it's mom or dad ?

Ok lol ... Kiana and Meko are mom are the starters ... I got lalla from them ...
I breed Lalla with Meko and I get Blue Tabby with a traited tail and it's male then I would then mate Lalla with the new box and so on? (If I wanted to continue with Blue Tabby and breed in more traits?

Yes.

This works for one or two traits. But, long-term, it's a bad move. Why? Because each time you do it, while you do lock in the trait you see, you risk discarding those you can't. Long term, what you'll want to do is cross the Blue Tabby offspring with some other family line to re-introduce traits.

(12-06-2012 07:48 PM)CordeliaSloan Resident Wrote:  Hmmm then I guess I could still test mom and dad with other boxes if I wanted to see if any other coats came out, huh?

NO!

There are only FOUR possible coats from your Mom and Dad. They show two of them. Their Blue Tabby box shows a third.

Get a boy box from Mom and Dad. You want it to show EITHER Mom's visible fur, or Blue Tabby. Breed the boy to Mom. Breed the girl-box to Dad. One of the offspring from those breed-backs will be the fourth fur. You could have back luck and never see it. But if you DO see it, you're done. Finished! Stop looking 'cause there aint no more!

[CordeliaSloan Resident]

Oh wait, yeah I obviously wasn't paying attention to my own info - of course if the box comes out diamond II it would show me nothing since the dad is Diamond II. Serious facepalm.

OK so all cats have 2 coats? So if dad had Bengal and mom had Blue Tabby along with the presented traits the box would still only have one hidden trait? Interesting.

Is it even worth it for me to try to find out which parent the Tabby came from at this point?

Sorry I hope I"m not being a pest, lol. Just trying to wrap my head around it. This is kinda different from what I'm used to. I'm used to the breedable carrying all the coats of the predecessors in it's lineage and having any of those coats as a possible coat for the offspring.

[CordeliaSloan Resident]

OK so, what if I do something silly and breed mom and dad again while waiting for the baby to grow and get love and I get ...

????????????????????????????????
? New Born Kitten

Fur: Genesis - Coco II
Eyes: Passion (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Shorty
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: 2 Tone Black & White (Shape: Plush)
Size: Normal

Version: 1.27
Owner: CordeliaSloan Resident
ID: 55034007-44d6-6fd3-f387-f9191d3dfb45
??????????????????????
MOM: Kiana
Fur: Genesis - Coco II
Eyes: Genesis Earth (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)

DAD: Meko
Fur: Genesis - Diamond II
Eyes: Genesis Water (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)
????????????????????????????????

[CordeliaSloan Resident]

Ok wait a minute - if the first time I bred mom and dad I got Genesis Water (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big) which is the same eye as the dad and then the second time I bred mom and dad I got Passion (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Big) then does that mean that the passion/mysterious is the hidden trait from the mom?

[dakillakm Resident]

Hi Cordelia! Getting the mysterious eye shape means that both mom AND dad hide the mysterious shape! Hoorah! As far as the passion eye goes it is still a mystery. You now know that ONE of them hides passion and ONE of them hides something better. If you breed the daughter (with gen water eyes, I think) with dad and get passion you still won't know if a) dad hides passion and daughter hides something more recessive from mom OR b) daughter was hiding passion from mom and dad is hiding something more recessive. XD complicated kittehs! If you got two kitties, male and female, who were both showing dad's genesis water then bred them together and got passion you would know for SURE that mom was the one hiding passion. Hopefully this makes some sort of sense

*I should add that mom and dad COULD both hide passion eye but that would be one hell of a coincidence! Also, congrats on the awesome shorty tail, 2 tone whiskers and plush whisker shape! That's a pretty awesome kitty from two genesis starters and it shows you that both of these kitties are hiding some pretty nice stuff!