Limited Purchases for Special Colletion Kitties

[VeetMesser Resident]

ok last comment but it is worth it. There are some of the newer people that i have seen or heard from maybe older people too i don't knwo haven't heard form them.
Just becuse a Kitty is priced at a start on a auction or bid board for lower than what the going market is that doesn't mean that is a true price it is a auction and or bid board the seller is hoping it will go higher. and to the going rate. But there are some that have some to me thinking this is a true price that a kitty is valued at and is what they expect to pay from someone else or from everyone else because that is what they saw or saw it go for. I for one have timed a auction board wrong. had awesome kitty that was ending during the Kitty and Date auction. Darn it and nobdy was around to bid on it. So i had a few people come to me thinking that i am to hold the next kitty i have like this for them at the same price in private or even less becuase i only got a couple bids on the kitty. oh and i have messed up on a start price at the wrong time of the month or week when noone has any money. When either i should have saved the kitty for another day or set the start a bit higher. As I said i'm still learning.
ok and the last point i would like to make which also is another ture issue at hand. having a Awesome New 9T fur kitty and awesome traits on it up for sale and someone comes along and either A. tells me i'm too high that they saw a 8T kitty with the same fur go for only 1/4 or 1/5th of my asking price or start price and they want to buy my 9T kitty for the same or lower. ummmmm??? Ok what traits did that Kitty have on it. response was given it was 7T or 8T i'm like ok but what were the traits and what was the traits on the parents and grands? One person that did this knows better and another well they just needed some guidance and more eduction. That not all 9T or 8T or 7T kitty with the same fur is worth the same as another. Those other Traits and hidden traits on My kitty or anyones kitty are worth more and may be harder to get or put on that kitty and maybe stronger and say a trait on another kitty. So people not being educated on this think oh they are crazy to ask this amount when i can go get that same kitty for 1/5th the cost else where. But what are you truley getting?????? and people that want to get that cheap kitty won't buy a well traited strong kitty. oh well in the long run you get what you pay for and to those sellers some day they will get what they sell for or even less and the domino effect happens

[Zevara Resident]

Kittycats is a pretty amazing breedable, and I feel the pain from both sides of the fence here. I am a breeder who loves new traits (because it's exciting to be the first to get something brand new to be a part of Kitty history, and its also exciting to think of the price that it might go for). Some people have turned KittyCatS into a serious business, and I applaud them for that. Others, just want to make pretty furballs and I support that, too.

First and foremost, I just want my kitties to be able to feed themselves like so many others have expressed here. I want to be able to create enough income to pay for kibble, milk, and rent on the places that I have shops to display my kitties. I also would like to make enough to buy new, cute kitties that I want and to be a part of the KittyCatS economy. If I expect to sell, I find it only fair that I buy. This is how the World goes round for any market. But, I also breed for the fun of it and to be in the KittyCats community. Most folks are extremely helpful and want nothing more than for everyone to have fun and make pretty kitties. But, the price-dropping really makes it tough to enjoy breeding for me sometimes.

I bought a handful of the most recent Valentine collection and was lucky enough to get Pewter eyes. I can honestly say that the breeders before me who have received this same trait can't sell it on a bid board or at an auction for a very reasonable price for a new trait. I think that a starting bid of $2K for a new eye is a fantastic deal, regardless of where it eventually falls in the line of recessiveness. It's brand new, and no one will buy it! The serenity eyes don't sell either, and as of late, the most recessive Grotto eye is a future sale at many of the auctions I've attended, nor does it sell on bid boards. I personally find that very disheartening. I've also been breeding for a couple of years, and looking back to when I started breeding I would have thought that $2K linden for ANY trait would have been bonkers! Those kinds of prices can be really hard on new folks who are trying to learn and who may not have the capital to invest into getting newer traits. However, if we as a community help newer folks by telling them that if they get a new trait it's possible to get more than $150 linden out of it...I think we should. It serves everyone in a positive way!

As a former breeding noob, I tried to sell many kitties for $100L and I could never figure out why no one bought them. A) It's a price dump and ruins the market, making it really rough to try and recover enough money to feed kitties, and B) as someone who personally ignores prices like that, it's a turnoff to me to buy a kitty that cheap and I automatically assume it's a basic traited kitty with Mysterious, Mysterious, Mysterious traits. I won't buy it. It's even more upsetting to walk past a kitty with a brand new trait selling for extremely cheap, knowing I'm trying so hard to breed it as quickly as possible with more recessive traits to make a beautiful cat and get it out into the market before the price on the trait tanks...in order to pay tier, and food, and milk.

I don't care who you are - if you cannot afford to put RL money into breeding kitties, the market matters. You depend on sales to keep going. Marketing a trait that was discovered three weeks ago (or whatever the timeline is) for $150L ruins it for us all. Of course no one is going to bid on Pewter eyes for $2K when they found it somewhere else for 1/8th of the price (or worse). I don't think the original post was necessarily meant to be malicious. I think it was posted out of frustration that many of us feel, and I thank Julia for it.

P.S. Julia - It's already been discussed, but limiting the number of kitties people can buy would never work. You already expressed your agreement on this. I replied out of agreement with your frustration.

[Quantic Kimono]

"But, the price-dropping really makes it tough to enjoy breeding for me sometimes."
I am all there with you.

Grotto eyes keep their value because they are recessive as hell, and I think that part of the secret of keeping the traits up in price is to bring them as recessive.
I did have pewter in 2 kitties and have like 4 with those eyes now, haven't sold a single one (put only one in one store which is there standing in the wind). But I know that I will not get 2K for those due to:
1) very dominant, I pulled them with Fancie indigo and
2) 1st sale of these eyes was 5K (started at 1K if I am not mistaken)...

what can we do? Nothing. Because we are on the base of the food chain when it takes to kittycats breeding, we don't do the algorithms
Grotto is still a eye that sells very good, all the Halloween new furs and eyes, if you notice, still have good value... as we had the collections coming one ofter the other the interest dropped. Might be my perception and I dislike being a negativist, I see myself as a realistic, and a foot in reality is worth 1000 stuffs of anything... my 5 cents

[Tad Carlucci]

Prices dropping are a fact of life for breedables, there is nothing anyone (consumer or provider) can do about it.

There are certain biases built into the system. Some can be removed, some cannot. Removing some of those which can be removed would, most likely, slow the rate at which prices fall; but the complaints about those changes would far overshadow the complaints about falling prices.

So, go ahead and complain. But, please, realize there is nothing you would accept which can be done which would gain the effect you want.

If you feel the issue harms your enjoyment, ignore the problem. Work on areas which have already worked through it. (Forget Grotto and work on Prismatic.)

If the newest is your "thing" ignore prices and work those traits. (Purchase starters and breed for Grotto, but ignore the price for Grotto.)

But, if it's all about profit and making a quick fortune, you'd best think of it betting on a very long long-shot and expect to lose vastly more often than you'll win.

---

The complaint is my responses are too long. So, if you don't care about my reasoning for stating the above, skip what follows.

This is a multi-fold issue.

First, there is the issue of "burn-out". This is where so many new traits appear, in such a short time, that players begin to feel burned out trying to chase after them. This issue generally occurs each Spring. The company usually promises to do better, but never seems to. This is a delicate balancing act and, most likely, the "goal" changes every year, so I doubt it's even possible to "get it right". As a player, your only winning move is not to play the game. That is, pick some (or none) of the new traits to worry about and ignore the others.

Next, there is the issue of "price". This is where the value of traits drops.

One desire is simply to increase the time it takes for the price to drop. This is a direct function of the breeding cycle. To hold prices higher, longer, the current 5-to-10-day breeding cycle would need to be adjusted. One step would be the elimination of "hasteners" such as vitamins, milk and cuddling. That would make it 10 days for everyone and, roughly, double the length of time it takes for prices to "crash". Another step would be to simply make it take longer. So, instead of 5-to-10 days it would take 10-to-15 or 15-to-20. Note, however, that there is NO way to prevent dropping prices for breedable traits. Any change which might slow the decline is unpalatable.

The other desire is to completely stop the decline in prices. This requires (a) the trait be non-breedable and (b) only a limited number appear. KittyCatS did this, once, with the Lepricat offspring, which were non-breedable and limited to 100. These conditions are necessary, but it's not proven they're sufficient (they're thought to be, but not proven) .. so it's possible that prices might still decline even with a non-breedable limited production. This, however, is only feasible in limited use, so it's not a real solution which can be broadly applied.

The suggestion in this thread is to reduce the number special collection cats which are sold.

Any limit on a per-avatar basis is meaningless because it does NOT impose any limit. It will, however, shift the initial population away from those who do not know how to bypass the so-called "limit" (call them "newbies") and shift it toward those who do (call them "established breeders"). It should be obvious that this so-called "limit" would, in addition to totally failing, increase complaints about bias against new players because, in fact, it *is* a bias against them.

Limiting the total number sold won't work either. First, it biases sales toward those who are online at the time the sale starts. Second, it biases sales toward those who can afford to purchase larger quantities. In the most degenerate example, the first person to purchase could purchase all available specimen. Not only would limiting the total number sold increase bias, it will fail. It won't only fail to slow the falling prices, it will make them fall further, faster!

[Quantic Kimono]

Well, there isn't any evident solution from all the discussions we had... I do appreciate your comments Tad, and you do touch the points where needed.
But, every business has its secrets and my wish is that kittyCats can soon find out a way or ways to manage out expectations in a way that brings more fairness and makes everyone a bit more "tuned"...

[Tad Carlucci]

I've spent years studying a number of breedable products, with various levels of access and detail. Along the way I've built a number of computer models. I'm fairly convinced that not only will they never find such a was, but that it is impossible to do so.

I've watched some products as they purport to "solve" the problem. The solutions I've seen, though, in one way or another, eliminate the effects of breeding, changing the game into nothing more than a lottery. And those products eventually fail. One could say they fixed the problem of crashing prices by eliminating the product. While that does "stabilize" prices, and they made a small fortune in the process, it does not seem a very viable long-term business plan.

Of all the issues along this line, the only one I recall KittyCatS ever expressing anything about was the size and frequency of new traits and special collections. Yes, they promised to try to restrain themselves when it comes to the size of some collections. And, it seems, they've taken some steps to adjust their frequency. And, yes, sometimes, they've gotten so wrapped up in the process, they went ahead and went overboard, again. One of the things which works about KittyCatS is their love for the product line. Let's face it, sure, sometimes they have too much fun, and the collections get too large. Should they strive to contain their exuberance? Sure. But not at the cost of their love for the product. I'd rather they go overboard occasionally that then wait months, if not years, for "something new".

I, for one, prefer things just as they are. KittyCatS has a vibrant, growing market. The price is we have to suffer through annual complaints about trait floods, prices falling too fast, and the "widespread death of the market" we'll hear about in a few more weeks. To me, those seem a small price to pay for a stable company, and growing product line, we can expect to survive for many years to come.

[Quantic Kimono]

... and then we have the algorithms, but that's another story

Hey Tad, thanks for the Kitty maker... I love that tool and just now I realized it was you who made it live. <3

[Zevara Resident]

(03-14-2014 10:02 AM)Quantic Kimono Wrote:  I did have pewter in 2 kitties and have like 4 with those eyes now, haven't sold a single one (put only one in one store which is there standing in the wind). But I know that I will not get 2K for those due to:
1) very dominant, I pulled them with Fancie indigo and
2) 1st sale of these eyes was 5K (started at 1K if I am not mistaken)...

Just because a brand new eye is dominant, doesn't mean its not worth anything. It's brand new. They should still go for more than the average dominant eye. Also, the Fancie eyes are by no means 'very dominant'. They're about 2/3rds of the way down the recessiveness chart. I wouldn't call that a very dominant eye at all.