KittyCatS! Community Forum

(05-31-2013 09:03 AM)Charles Courtois Wrote: [ -> ]... (if you're working with an older starter, keep in mind that a trait that is currently retired may not have been retired when the starter was originally produced).

This only applies if the Starter is a Box which has ever appeared in-world, or in the Cattery. For accuracy, "Originally produced" should read "was first rezzed in-world, or first appeared in the Cattery."

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There is a fourth option, similar to using retired traits, which works for Fur and Eyes, especially for newer breeders who may not have a lot of stock to select from: use a cat which shows a current (not retired) Genesis fur and eye trait which is recessive to your starter. The Starter is GUARANTEED NOT to hide Genesis fur and eye; so, if you see the partner's more recessive Genesis fur and/or eye, you know the offspring hides the Starter's hidden fur/eye trait and no other. Wait for the more recessive Genesis fur/eye to appear with a gender which can mate with the more dominant parent, pull a breed-back to that parent and you'll have 1-in-4 odds, per box, of getting the hidden Genesis fur/eye. In addition, that hidden, when it appears, is provably "pure" .. the hidden and visible fur/eye will be the same.

Using a relatively recessive Genesis eye (e.g. Genesis Odyssey) is a valid approach for sure. I would be less comfortable using a current Genesis fur though, since I haven't seen a lot of solid data about the relative dominance of Genesis III furs.

(05-31-2013 02:35 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-31-2013 09:03 AM)Charles Courtois Wrote: [ -> ]... (if you're working with an older starter, keep in mind that a trait that is currently retired may not have been retired when the starter was originally produced).

This only applies if the Starter is a Box which has ever appeared in-world, or in the Cattery. For accuracy, "Originally produced" should read "was first rezzed in-world, or first appeared in the Cattery."

I could have read it wrong, but I was assuming he meant starters like the Lazy Dayzies... even after being updated, they'll still hide a Gerbera Eye and Porcelain Shade (although I tend to call these traits "limited edition" and not "retired" but that's more to categorize them in my own brain; not everyone does that).

For clarity, for those who may not be up on how it works.

1) Traits are not set for a box until the box appears in the Cattery or is first rezzed in world.

2) All Starters, whether normal or Special Collection, are then generated for their genetic makeup. The dominant trait values are taken from the now-current set. At present, this is the Genesis III furs, Genesis eyes (Curious/Big), Normal shade, Genesis ears and tail, and Silver(Guitar) whiskers. The hidden traits are taken from the now-current set; so Russian White, which is presently retired, is not a possible value for the hidden; but Foxie Salt and Pepper, is.

3) Copy the dominant trait values as the Shown trait values. If this is a normal Starter, generation is complete: skip the next two steps.

4) For Special Collection boxes, replace the Shown trait values with the special appearance for that collection. This does NOT change the genetic makeup.

5) IF the box is a Special Collection Starter,
OR IF the box is the FIRST offspring for EACH partner for pairs of selected Special Edition Starter parents,
OR IF the box was produced in the course of breeding any parents, AND rezzed in-world within the Saint Patrick's day time-frame (two years ago),
AND IF it has a CHANCE to carry (as a hidden) a Limited Edition trait value (to use Wendi's term) such as Lazy Dayzies' Gerbera eye colors,
AND IF the cat wins a secret random roll (if needed),
AND IF the Limited Edition trait value is RECESSIVE to the recessive trait value from step 2,
THEN replace the recessive from step 2 with the Limited Edition trait.

Note this does not care about "retired". Special Collection Starters and offspring ALWAYS get this chance and, if they meet the criteria, and win, get the trait value.

(05-31-2013 05:36 PM)Charles Courtois Wrote: [ -> ]Using a relatively recessive Genesis eye (e.g. Genesis Odyssey) is a valid approach for sure. I would be less comfortable using a current Genesis fur though, since I haven't seen a lot of solid data about the relative dominance of Genesis III furs.

Tad and you both have excellent points, one thing I'd like to add .. and please note that this is speculation at this point, but it's an educated guess based on how we've noted that certain things are grouped (the gerbera, fruit, and now the crystal eyes, for example).

We have absolute proof that all but one of the Genesis II furs are dominant to the original Genesis furs, and I heavily suspect that they all are. We also now have proof that *one* of the new Genesis III furs is dominant to *one* (the most dominant, as good luck would have it) of the Genesis II furs. *IF* the Genesis furs are grouped, then logic would dictate that the Genesis III's are the most dominant (though we still need to determine the order among these), then the Genesis IIs, then most recessive of the Genesis furs would be the original ones.

Please be aware, this information is very speculative at this point, but it could be useful if you have no choice but to use a Genesis fur to try and pull something from a starter.

I absolutely agree.

Considering the rules for generation of Starters, it would be quite reasonable to assume, even without evidence from breeding, that all Genesis III furs are dominant to all Genesis II furs, and all Genesis II furs are dominant to all original Genesis furs.

I really enjoyed the self-directed tutorial (including the little quiz questions that helped me think about the "whys" as I followed the slide show). Thanks for providing this resource.

(06-02-2013 10:01 AM)Tabbella Resident Wrote: [ -> ]I really enjoyed the self-directed tutorial (including the little quiz questions that helped me think about the "whys" as I followed the slide show). Thanks for providing this resource.

You're welcome, Tabella!! I'm so glad you found it helpful!

~ Week 3 Kitten Info ~

(This assumes you've been following the project and have already read everything up to Week 2)
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/At...73/189/127

It's Week 3 and we have our third kitten from Poppy and Ricky!

Here are the stats of the new kitty:

? Yay, It's a BOY!

Fur: Russian - Black
Eyes: Grape Ice (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: White (Shape: Guitar)
Size: Normal

MOM: Poppy
Fur: Genesis - Diamond III
Eyes: Genesis Water (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)

DAD: Ricky
Fur: Russian - Black
Eyes: Gerbera Purple (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Flair
Tail: Big Boo Boo
Ears: Soft Fold
Whiskers: White (Shape: Curious)

Thanks for all the "boy vibes" everyone sent this past week, we got the boy we wanted!

He has the same shown fur as Ricky, and the white whisker colour. We can breed him to the Week 2 kitten and see what mysteries are revealed. We've also decided to bring in another boy kitty to breed with Poppy. Read on...!


Why did we choose this method over the other methods discussed last week? A couple of good reasons:

1. We know both kitties hide awesome stuff so there's a great chance of getting a well-traited cat (they hide a lot of Ricky's nice traits), even if it is a dud.
2. Because the kittens both hide the fur and the whisker colour (hoping it's not white lol), we can try and expose two unknown mystery traits at once.
3. It's often the only option many breeders have if they don't have access to a variety of breeding stock or the money to purchase exactly the stock they need.
4. We could have back-bred the Week3Kitten to Poppy but we'd end similar odds at finding the mystery fur and whisker colour but we'd be more likely to get lesser-traited kittens as a result. Sibling breeding will give us a minimum of a 4-traited cat, whereas breeding Week3Kitten with Poppy will be more likely to give kittens with a lot more genesis traits.

Here is what we're looking at:

Fur:

Both kittens are hiding Poppy's mystery fur.
Every time they breed and have a kitten, there's a 25% chance that new kitten will have their hidden fur. Why only 25%?

Recall that a kitten gets one trait from mom (either her shown or hidden) and one trait from dad (either his shown or hidden). The more dominant of the 2 traits the kitten receives will be the kitten's shown trait, and the more recessive will be the kitten's hidden trait.

This gives us four possible outcomes:

1. Week2Kitten passes Russian Black, Week3Kitten passes Russian Black. In this case, the new kitten will show Russian Black. Boo hoo, nothing to see here.
2. Week2Kitten passes Russian Black, Week3Kitten passes the hidden mystery fur. In this case, the kitten will show Russian Black, and will be hiding the mystery fur, but it will look exactly like #1. Also not very useful.
3. Week2Kitten passes the hidden mystery fur, Week3Kitten passes Russian Black. See #2.
4. Week2Kitten passes the hidden mystery fur, Week3Kitten passes the hidden mystery fur. Bingo! The kitten will get the hidden mystery fur as the shown fur (and as the hidden) and we'll finally see what it is!

If we consistently get Russian Black as the outcome, we might decide to bring in a different cat with a more recessive fur. We're going to wait and see what happens!

Whisker Colour:

We were never positive if those White whiskers are Ricky's shown whisker colour, or if they are Poppy's hidden whisker colour. If something other than Two-Tone or Black whiskers ever come from these kittens, we'll know that this is Poppy's hidden whisker colour.

If we get Two-Tone or Black, we might have to bring on the Latte whiskers because remember that the kittens' shown White whisker could have been Poppy's hidden, which means that their hidden whisker is actually Ricky's hidden whisker colour. We were never sure if Ricky's white whiskers were pure; there was a very small chance he might have hid Two-Tone or Black whiskers (it was unlikely, but you never want to assume anything you're not totally sure of!)

Anyway, I'd like to use Latte only as a last resort - Latte is the most recessive whisker colour and it's relatively new, so very few people have it or have access to it. We'd like to try and stick with techniques that are more applicable to the average breeder.

~ Introducing: Sammy! ~

There's one more thing: We've unboxed another boyfriend for Poppy!

Sammy is a pure Balinese Seal Lynx with Black Wavy whiskers. We're going to use Sammy to see if we can draw out Poppy's mystery fur and whisker shape.

We had a lot of options to choose from when picking a second partner for Poppy. We chose Sammy because:

* His fur is a pure retired fur! If Poppy's hidden fur is more recessive than Balinese Seal Lynx, we'll know for sure that any kittens showing Balinese Seal Lynx MUST be hiding Poppy's hidden fur. If his fur is more dominant than Poppy's hidden fur, then we'll have a 50% chance of any kittens showing this hidden mystery fur! How did we get 50%? As an exercise, list the four possible outcomes and results of breeding Sammy and Poppy, if Poppy's hidden fur is more dominant than Balinese Seal Lynx. Remember, Sammy's Balinese Seal Lynx is pure! I'll put the answer at the end so you can check!

The nice thing is because Bali Seal is retired, if the kittens show Bali Seal, there won't be any worries about "did this come from Poppy or is this Sammy's hidden??" There's NO WAY Poppy could be hiding Balinese Seal Lynx because it's a retired fur.

* Sammy has pure Wavy whiskers (I know this because the line they come from was never exposed to the newer Fussy or Light Wave whiskers - those whiskers were released after this line was started). Wavy whiskers are currently the 2nd most recessive whisker shape so there's a good chance they're more recessive than whatever Poppy is hiding.

If Sammy and Poppy produce a kitten that shows Wavy whiskers, we have two possible reasons:
1. Poppy hides Wavy whiskers, Fussy whiskers, or Light Wave whiskers. We'll have to do more work to find out which, if this is the case.
2. Poppy hides a NEW undiscovered whisker shape, OMG! We won't know unless we do more work.

Other reasons for choosing Sammy other some of the other choices we had were:
* a lot of the others had much nicer eyes and since we already know Poppy hides a pretty dominant eye, we didn't want to waste a really good eye
* all of the Blonde Streaked / Wavy whiskered boxes/cats were girls We could have pulled out a Latte kitty for the whisker colour, but I'd rather wait and do that as a last resort (see reasons stated in the previous section). Plus I'm the only one of us three with Latte at the moment, and all of my Latte kitties have furs more dominant than Black Russian, and we wanted to pick a cat that could solve more than one mystery.

In summary, Sammy can help us solve the mystery of fur and whisker shape, while the Week 2 and Week 3 offspring can work at solving the mystery of fur and whisker colour.

It will take 2 weeks for the kittens to get old enough to breed, who knows what will happen between now and then? Tune in next week to find out!


Exercise answer:

IF Poppy's mystery fur is more dominant than Balinese Seal Lynx (Sammy's shown and hidden fur) :

1. Poppy passes shown genesis Diamond fur, Sammy passes shown Balinese Seal Lynx fur: Kitten shows Diamond and hides Bali Seal. Dud!

2. Poppy passes shown genesis Diamond fur, Sammy passes hidden Balinese Seal Lynx fur:
Kitten show Diamond and hides Bali Seal. Dud!

3. Poppy passes hidden mystery fur, Sammy passes shown Balinese Seal Lynx fur:
Kitten shows mystery fur and hides Bali Seal Lynx!

4. Poppy passes hidden mystery fur, Sammy passes hidden Balinese Seal Lynx fur:
Kitten shows mystery fur and hides Bali Seal Lynx!

Therefore, 2/4 outcomes result in a kitty showing the hidden mystery fur, that's 50%.

I am loving this! I do spreadsheets for all my starter cats and list what traits i find .... lol i think it's fun!