KittyCatS! Community Forum

(05-25-2013 07:15 AM)Wendi Lavendel Wrote: [ -> ]3. Whisker Colour.

So, there are two possibilities here:

How do we find out if it's (a) or (b)? We have some options:

Your analysis is correct. However, when choosing future partners for Mom or the Box, you should proceed under the assumption that the White whisker color came from Dad; Mom hides something recessive to White, and the Box carries Mom's hidden recessive.

Why? Because the odds strongly favor that being the case.

(05-25-2013 01:43 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote: [ -> ]Your analysis is correct. However, when choosing future partners for Mom or the Box, you should proceed under the assumption that the White whisker color came from Dad; Mom hides something recessive to White, and the Box carries Mom's hidden recessive.

Why? Because the odds strongly favor that being the case.

Yes, thank you, we appreciate your feedback.

Recall in the in-world notes about the breeder cat that he was specifically chosen for that reason - not everyone knows exactly what their cats are hiding (particularly newer breeders, to which this project is targeted) and we wanted to make this as realistic as possible.

Here is the Slurl in case you missed that particular notecard or wish to read the notes again: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/At...73/189/127

This is such a wonderful project. I am so pleased with how it is turning out and I can NOT wait to see what else this little starter hides!

A pretty decent start to the project, I think, and a nice analysis of the result, Wendi!

One thing I'm hoping this project will do is to get people talking about working with starters, & maybe de-mystifying it a bit, because I know many breeders are intimidated when it comes to working with starters. I'm planning to add some of my own reflections about working with starters as this goes on (for what they're worth lol), & I hope others will too (we can all learn from each other).

At this point, I just want to give my own perspective on why I work with starters.

First of all, starters give you an opportunity to get traits into your cattery that may be expensive or maybe even next-to-impossible to get any other way, including the newest ones, which are often the most desirable. I have acquired many of my cutest and most marketable traits by simply coaxing them out of starters. Starters have given my cattery many traits before I could acquire them via the market; things like Ocicat Ebony Silver, Tapestry Organica eye colour, Flash & Blush shades, Frazzled whiskers, & many more.

Secondly, traits often have their greatest value when they first come out, & usually the best way to get them when they are most valuable is by getting them from starters.

Thirdly, working with starters helps develop your breeding skills. If you aren't already an expert at reading pedigrees, working with starters is certainly a great way to make you better at it lol. Starters require attention, they force you to look at the details. Those skills will come in handy the next time you're at an auction, or when you're working with other cats.

Fourthly, every once in a while (not very often lol, but it happens), the starter gods will look down kindly on you & give you traits in bunches (this is one of many reasons to use traity cats with starters). I've had as many as 8 traits come out in a single breeding between a 9-traiter & a starter, & one of my most successful lines (my Fussy-tailed Bali Lilacs) got started by getting a 6T & a 7T of opposite genders in early breedings with a starter, allowing very productive sibling breeding at an early stage. Again, your mileage may vary hehe, but if you don't play, you can't win lol.

Finally, there's a certain level of satisfaction you get when you coax a trait from a starter, nurture that trait over time, and breed a truly wonderful kitty with that trait. It feels good to be able to step back & say, "I did that!"

Hopefully others will add their reflections on working with starters, & we can get a productive dialogue going that we can all learn from.

(05-26-2013 07:49 AM)Charles Courtois Wrote: [ -> ]Fourthly, every once in a while (not very often lol, but it happens), the starter gods will look down kindly on you & give you traits in bunches (this is one of many reasons to use traity cats with starters).

Which goes to why my suggestion to presume Mom, in the analysis above, hides something more more recessive that White whisker color.

"Every once in a while" is technically incorrect. Every starter is guaranteed to hide AT LEAST four traits: Fur, Eye Color, Whisker Color and Whisker Shape.

In addition, for Shade, Ears and Tail, the odds strongly favor hidden traits, as well.

The most likely starter will (a) show zero traits, and (b) hide at least seven.

In general, while this only *slightly* overstates the odds in your favor, the odds are 25% a starter hides seven traits, 50% it hides eight (either Curious eye shape or Small pupils also hides), and 25% it hides nine (both Curious and Small appear).

The reason most people see fewer is the difficulty getting all of the traits from the starter. This goes to the breeding process, however, and not the starters, themselves.

What I meant by "giving traits in bunches" was getting many of the starters hidden traits coming out in a single breeding, as I hope the supporting examples I gave illustrated. A starter can hide all 9 traits, but the fact is even in this situation, there are many times when you will only get a small number of traits showing up at once.

Your point about the appearance of fewer traits being a result of the breeding process itself is factually correct; however, in my KC "theology" the "starter gods" are demigods in the breeding pantheon hehe.

(05-26-2013 08:09 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote: [ -> ]"Every once in a while" is technically incorrect. Every starter is guaranteed to hide AT LEAST four traits: Fur, Eye Color, Whisker Color and Whisker Shape.

This is incorrect, we have verified that a starter WILL hide Fur, Eye Color, Ear, Tail, Whisker Color and Whisker Shape. The only traits a starter may or may not hide are Eye Shape, Pupil Size and Shade. Except in cases such as the Lazie Dazies where a shade was guaranteed to be hiding.

As for if the starter in this scenario hides white or better whiskers, there is a high chance of it hiding white because it is the most dominant it will also show in the starters more than say blonde streaked. As Wendi has stated she does plan to test them further to verify as well.

I once had a starter I had partnered to a Siamese Flame with Odyssey Sublime eyes that I knew were pure due to breeding back and such in that line. I kept getting Odyssey Sublime back from the pairing so I decided to breed back with the same results, although pulling more traits I was looking for. Once I had a solid line from the starter of the traits it was hiding I wanted I went on to test the starters eyes further with an eye more recessive than the Odyssey Sublime and guess what? I got Odyssey Sublime back again, meaning the starter and who I had partnered her with had the Odyssey Sublime. So it does happen that you breed the same trait to the starter that it hides, it isn't common but the more dominant a trait is the better chance of it happening.

hmm? I was sure I read somewhere that Ear and Tail might hide Genesis as well as non-Genesis. Perhaps that changed? I know, when wrote the answer for the FAQ I was told Ear and Tail were not guaranteed to hide non-Genesis and corrected the FAQ accordingly. I'll root around, but I'm fairly sure it was official guidance that Ear and Tail were not guaranteed to hide non-starter trait values. Perhaps that changed and I should correct the FAQ?

As to your experience with your Odyssey Sublime eyes .. that's my point exactly. It's POSSIBLE, but quite unlikely that you'll choose to breed a partner showing the same trait as the hidden. The more possible values (as with Fur and Eyes) the less likely this is. The more dominant the partner's trait, the less likely it is. So, when you breed the most-dominant non-starter trait, such as White whisker color, to a starter and you get that know back out, as in this case, the odds strongly favor the starter hiding something more recessive.

Specifically, in the case of breeding White whisker color, to a starter, when you get a White whisker color offspring, the odds are 1-in-5 (20%) that the starter also hides White whisker, and 4-in-5 (80%) that it hides something more recessive. Hence my advice, when planning your next move after such a result: assume the starter, and therefor the box, hide something more recessive than White whisker color.

These, of course, are ODDS. They don't guarantee it hides something more recessive. As you found with your Odyssey Sublime eyes (where the odds are (presently) approximately 9-in-10 (90%) that your starter hide something more recessive, it's always possible to get that other 1-in-10 starter, as you did.

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Specifically, for a starter mating with White whiskers, the odds are:

50% the offspring will be Silver

24% the offspring will be White from Dad and something more recessive than White from starter Mom

4% the offspring will be White from starter Mom and something more recessive than White from Dad

6% the offspring will be White hiding White.

16% the offspring will be something more recessive than White hiding something equally or more recessive

The box won the coin toss and is White.

This is assuming Dad's hidden whisker color is fully random and completely unknown, and represents the worst-case scenario, which was indicated by the analysis (I've not examined Dad's Pedigree).

I have asked KittyCatS Resident directly about what can or can not hide in starters, so I would suggest you do update any information you have that is otherwise. It came up at lasts years RFL expo during the Q&A, and then I confirmed it with KittyCatS because I knew how important that information would be to the whole community.

As for what might be hiding I choose not argue about it but my feeling has always been you have a HIGHER change of having something dominant than something recessive hiding. If it wasn't the case we would see loads of people breeding out recessive traits from multiple starters. Wendi has already stated that there maybe something more recessive hiding and she will keep it in mind as she continues this project. Which in my opinion is the correct way instead of assuming anything.

Geez. You're right. I even have it correct in the FAQ. It's my decrepit. ancient brain which failed me again. All starts show zero and hide at least SIX traits, as Sanura pointed out.

My feeling is that the odds for starters are even .. that is one value is equally as likely as any other, within a given trait. That, coupled with the dominance/recessive rules, and the way people will tend to view it, would lead to the impression that more dominant trait values are more likely that more recessive.

My thinking is that teaching breeding should be more about teaching to breed effectively and less about all the possible ways things COULD go. Which goes back to the White whiskers. Yes, there are a number of possible ways. And, yes, all are possible. But effective breeding would go with the most likely flow, first. And, so, while it's POSSIBLE Mom hides White and the box is White hiding Dad's recessive, it's far more likely that the box shows Dad's visible White and carries Mom's non-Silver, non-White recessive. That may not ALWAYS be the case, but it's going to be correct at least six times as often (for parents like these) as it's going incorrect.

So, if the goal is to instruct breeders in all possible cases, have at it. But if the goal is to assist them to get better results, faster, I stand by my recommendation to first proceed under the assumption that the box and it's mother bother hide something recessive to White whisker color.