Snowshoe Chocolate -- recessiveness

[Kayla Woodrunner]

As some people are aware, AbiJen found Cream & Whtie Tabby is actually dominant to Abyssinian Ruddy which means those two needed to be flipped on the Saga charts.

I've been talking to the Saga folks about it. It turns out because they are very early furs before the current volunteers became chart managers, they don't have charts from that time. So the following furs need to be retested. They have some land they will dedicate to this chart testing and kibble. They have a set up a team to work on this -- and I have volunteered for the team so will be working with them directly

Furs to be retested
Abyssinian Ruddy
Cream & White Tabby
Snowshoe Chocolate

and Ocicat Black because it was placed due through Aby Ruddy

Cool thing is some past chart proofs on the forums are helping to keep things set so not everything needs to be restested. This will also provide charts tht they file these days (Cream & White Tabby and Snowshoe Chocolate are original furs from the beginning!). That way if htere are future questions, the charts will be on hand to check against.

So here are the prioities

Piority #1: Abyssinian Ruddy vs. Tawny Tabby
Quote from the note Saga sent me
"Piority #1: Abyssinian Ruddy vs. Tawny Tabby is definitely a top priority, because if Ruddy is dominant to the Tawny, we can establish Foxie Auburn > Oci Black > Ruddy > Tawny Tabby as a locked in sequence. Then we only have Snowshoe Chocolate and Cream & White Tabby to worry about."

Also from their note
"Priority #2: Any of the following:
Snowshoe Choc vs. Foxie Auburn
Snowshoe Choc vs. Cream & White Tabby
Oci Black vs. Cream & White Tabby
If we can confirm those 4, that should give us a good framework. If they can fall into a certain order, it could fix everything fairly quickly.

Any confirmation of Abyssinian Ruddy and Ocicat Black would be welcome, just to be on the safe side."

If you have charts with those pairings proven, please post int he forum and send to Saga. If you are willing to do a breeding, Saga can set you up with a square on the project land (kibble will be out for people willing to do these tests)

If you have one fur out but not the other, say so, maybe we can do some team pairings.

[Deidra Loring]

Snowshoe Choco vs. Foxie Auburn.

https://gyazo.com/83115050f454ebddb46a2aa6eab48bec

Opened male Foxie Auburn offspring to breed back to Snowshoe Choco mom.

[Kayla Woodrunner]

Congrats on your new baby!

If you have put Snowshoe Choco and Foxie Auburn together for the priority dominance testing for the Saga project testing, then pairing it back to mom may not be the best way to make a proof.

Doing backbreeding is best for when you want to get a particular trait and you are pairing a shown parent to a possible hid child raises the percentage of getting the fur to 50% or higher. It is good for when you want something but it's not the best for testing dominance.

When you are doing dominance, if you have a Foxie Auburn child and want to find out if it has Snowshoe Chocolate hid, the more optimum thing to do is to breed it to something that is known to be more recessive. In this case, Russian Blue and anything more recessive to Russian Blue showing on the partner would be optimal.

Example visually:
A=Foxie Auburn fur (orig dad)
a=Bali Cream or more recessive (orig dad's hid)
B=Snowshoe Choco (orig mom)
b=Russian Black or more recessive (orig mom's hid)

Aa+Bb = child A? (? = B or b)

The reason is if you breed a Foxie Auburn fur shown possible Snowshoe Chocolate hid to a Snowshoe Chocolate shown partner, when you get a Snowshoe Chocolate shown baby you will not know if the Snowshoe Chocolate comes from the partner or is the possible hid from your Foxie Auburn. So you don't have a proof.

B? = unknown partner with Snowshoe chocolate shown)
A?+B? = child B? (B: Snowshoe choclate -- could have come partner or from that first child)

If you pair the Foxie Auburn fur shown possible Snowshoe Chocolate hid to a Foxie Salt&Pepper partner (Foxie S&P is recessive to Russian Blue), when you get a Snowshoe Chocolate shown baby, then you have positive proof Snowshoe Chocolate is recessive to Foxie Auburn. If you get another fur more recessive than Russian Blue like Russian Black, then you know the Foxie Auburn fur shown possible Snowshoe Chocolate hid got the Snowshoe Chocolate hid and not the Snowshoe Chocolate shown.

Foxie S&P = C
Foxie S&P hid = Tonki New Mink (for example)=c

A? + Cd = BC (since B is less than C, B has to come from A because B is dominant to C or C's hid d)
A? = AB positive proof

Hope that helps if you are doing dominance testing. Dominance testing is a little different. Most times if you are doing a backbreed parent to child breeding in dominance testing, it is the most recessive to the most recessive to prove something is more recessive than that most recessive like backbreeding Exotic Journey to pull out Galaxy Star. Anything more dominant than most recessive has other possible variables of a lot of other furs/eyes/traits.

Sorry this is so long but there might be others doing dominance testing or finding their hids and are new to this so I was trying to be clear.

And to anyone who is new, the best reference on eyes and furs on dominance is saga's charts here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0...ljODliMDhm

(07-28-2016 05:15 PM)Deidra Loring Wrote:  Snowshoe Choco vs. Foxie Auburn.



Opened male Foxie Auburn offspring to breed back to Snowshoe Choco mom.

[Kayla Woodrunner]

Snowshoe Chocolate confirmed dominant to Tabby Cream & White

Mom shows Snowshoe Chocolate
Dad shows Abby Ruddy
Baby shows Tabby Cream & White

Abijen's proofs on the Tabby Cream & White thread proves Tabby Cream & White is dominant to Aby Ruddy. So Tabby Cream & White has to be mom's hid, proving recessive to Snowshoe Chocolate

[Deidra Loring]

Thanks, Kayla - That made perfect sense. I just didn't think it through carefully enough I'm sure I have something more recessive at home to bring to the project site and we'll go from there.

[Kayla Woodrunner]

I'm glad that heped Deidra!

[Deidra Loring]

This FoxieAuburn baby ended up hiding Black Russian....



Have opened another SnowshoeChoco vs. FoxieAuburn offspring for testing, will be ready in about a week.

[Kayla Woodrunner]

Deidre how is your Foxie Auburn -- Snowshoe Chocolate going? I think the order is done but this thread reminded me that oen is still out there.

This is hwat I just posted but I may have been premature

Yay! Finally Ocicat Black is recessive to Snowshoe Chocolate! And this places Tonkinese Champagne because it is proven recessive to Ocicat Black and dom to Cream & White Tabby

Reven and I paired her Ocicat Black to my Snowshoe Chocolate

We got a Snowshoe Chocolate and here goes te chart

Mom has Bengal Black showing
Dad has Snowshoe Chocolate showing
Baby has Ocicat Black showing ... tada!!!
Ocicat ahs to be the hid of dad and proves recessive to Snowshoe Chocolate

This finishes it. The new order is:
Foxie Auburn
Snowshoe Chocolate
Ocicat Black
Tonkinese Champagne
Cream & White Tabby
Abyssinian Ruddy
Tawny Tabby

[Deidra Loring]

Hello Kayla and all -

The SnowshoeChoc vs. FoxyAuburn OS is at at 61% love, so just a few more days. She is showing Showshoe Chocolate - hoping for successful test so we can put this one on the charts!

[Kayla Woodrunner]

Did you get any babies with Foxie Auburn showing? Just curious