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Newbie question about hidden trait
06-13-2015, 11:10 PM (This post was last modified: 06-13-2015 11:16 PM by Buum Jansma.)
Post: #1
Newbie question about hidden trait
Hello everyone,

I try to understand more about the hidden traits and maybe you call me lazy, but there is so much information, i can't find easy the answer, or maybe i'm looking wrong.

I have a Kitty : http://kittycats.biz/p.php?301edc44-a161873-57619
If i'm right he have the eyes comming from the Hidden mother trait.
and the hidden trait of the father.

The visible trait is Always dominand to the hidden trait, but what hidden trait will the father give to the kitten........?

The father have Tapestry Organica eyes visible from the grandfather and Odyssey Bellini (or maybe better from the hidden trait) from the grand mother.

will the hidden trait of the kitten be random from the father? (The visible or the hidden trait) or the most dominant trait or the most resesive trait??????

so will the hidden trait be Odyssey Bellini or the more dominand Tapestry Organica or wil it be random?

i hope enyone likes to answer my question Smile

one more question, when the kitten breed, and he gives the trait of the eyes to the kitten, it will be random visible or hidden or depends it also how dominand or resesive the trait is?
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06-14-2015, 03:18 AM
Post: #2
RE: Newbie question about hidden trait
Hello Buum Jansma
Just so you know we can't see your pedigree link (it's private to you) so it's difficult to answer your question. If you could take a picture of the pedigree and post it, it would be helpful. I use Gyazo to make pics but there are other free services. Also you can do a snapshot and post/attach that.

But the best way to understand it is that

1. Mom has two traits 1 shown and 1 hidden. Let's call shown "A" and hidden "a". As you said the most dominant is shown (although hid and shown can be the same). So
Mom = Aa
2. Dad has two traits 1 shown and 1 hidden. Let's call shown "B" and hidden "b". So
Dad = Bb
3. Each child gets 1 trait from mom (50% chance on receiving shown or hidden). Any o.ther trait from mom does not pass
Each child gets 1 trait from dad (50% chance on receiving shown or hidden). Any other trait from dad does not pass
So child is
AB, Ab, aB or ab

Since I can't see your chart, I'll go see what I birthed today to show you an example.

"In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this." Terry Pratchett
Der Kitty Mill
Latest Born Kitty:
[Image: Kayla_Woodrunner]
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 Thanks given by: Songdog Woolley , fabioazevedo Oh , Buum Jansma
06-14-2015, 04:09 AM (This post was last modified: 06-14-2015 04:42 AM by Buum Jansma.)
Post: #3
RE: Newbie question about hidden trait
Thanks for the reply,

Here a link to the picture (hope it is visible to everyone now : http://gyazo.com/f43172b2a6ed29f07d1c89fb6346b4cd

so there is Always 50% chance the shown or hidden trait will pass to the next kitten, what means that the Odyssey Bellini from the grandmother of Top Job Boy get lost?

I think i see the answer now Smile
because the hidden trait from the mother and the dad did pass to Top Job Boy.
but good to know there will be a 50-50% change they pass the visible or hidden trait.
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06-14-2015, 04:38 AM (This post was last modified: 06-14-2015 04:58 AM by Kayla Woodrunner.)
Post: #4
RE: Newbie question about hidden trait
Your link worked great (I'm going to post the image inline so it's easier to see while doing analysis)

[Image: f43172b2a6ed29f07d1c89fb6346b4cd.gif]

(note if copying the link as an image and it's gyazo, you have to add ".png" or ".gif" to the image address or the image doesn't show. whether png or gif depends on what kind of pic you took -- in your case .gif. When you copy it as a link as you did, you don't have to add the png or gif because the url works as is as a link.)

looking at this image:

Mom Kendall had Fire shown
Father Page had Tapestry Organica shown
Child Top Job Boy had Apple shown
Apple is dominant to Tapestry Organica so cannot come from dad
This is how you use the recessiveness of one partner to prove the hid of the other partner

this proves Apple is Mom Kendall's hid
Mom is Fire/Apple
Dad is Tapestry Organica/ Ody Bell or more recessive hid (Dad got Tap organica from his dad Shipley who shows Fire but his mom Sha-Mia shows Ody Bell. Tap Org dom to Ody Bell so cannot come from dad's mom. Therefore mom passed her ody bell or her hid ody bell or something more recessive)


Top Job Boy shows Apple hid from Mom. The shown Fire is lost forever on Top Job Boy.
Top Job Boy will get Dad's Tap Org or hid Ody bell or more recessive
He is either aB or ab

Top Job Boy child Top Job Buum shows Tapestry Organica (Top Job Buum's Mom is not visible)
Top Job Buum Child either got Tap Org from dad which means it is dad's Top Job Buum or from Top Job Buum's mom depending on what she shows/hides. For example if mom shows or hides Tap Org, then it is possible Tap Org came from Mom and child has it both shown and hid. Without seeing the mom, no way to make that judgement
No matter what the mother is, you are correct, since Tapestry Organica shows, the hid passed and the shown Apple eye is lost forever on the Black Bengal child.

"In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this." Terry Pratchett
Der Kitty Mill
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[Image: Kayla_Woodrunner]
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 Thanks given by: Songdog Woolley , Buum Jansma
06-14-2015, 04:45 AM (This post was last modified: 06-14-2015 05:53 AM by Buum Jansma.)
Post: #5
RE: Newbie question about hidden trait
Thanks for helping me, the longer i think the more i gues i understand it Smile
Sorry i deleted the next question in post: #3 Smile
i did ask the hidden trait would be the same as the visible trait, but the hidden trait will come from the mother of top job buum Smile

[Image: fda82376b1a4d15e4d768dea6a0eeb15.png]

So if i breed Top Job Buum with his Father Top Job Boy i may think about :

- Fur Big change for Siamese Chocolate Tortie
Small Change for Bengal Black
- eyes Big change for Tapestry Organica
Small change for Apple
- Shade Big change for natural
Small change the hidden trait show
- Tail Big change for Plush
Small change the hidden trait show
- Ears Big change for Curious
Small change the hidden trait show (The Mysterious Odyssey Fold from Top job Girl can be a hidden trait in the new kitten)
- Wiskers Big change for 2 Tone Black & White
Small change for white or hidden trait (The Latte from Top job Girl can be a hidden trait in the new kitten)
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06-18-2015, 06:31 AM (This post was last modified: 06-18-2015 07:33 AM by Tad Carlucci.)
Post: #6
RE: Newbie question about hidden trait
Top Job Bumm is:

Fur: Bengal Black hiding Chocolate Tortie or better.
Eyes: Tapestry Organica hiding Odyssey Bellini or better. (N.B. proves Top Job Boy hides Tapestry Organica)
Eye Shape: Curious hiding Mysterious
Pupil Size: Small hiding Small
Shade: Natural hiding Twinkle or better
Tail: Plush hiding Curious or better
Ears: Curious hiding Mysterious Odyssey Fold or better (N.B. proves Top Job Boy hides Curious)
Whiskers: 2 Tone Black and White hiding Latte or better (N.B. proves Top Job Boy hides 2 Tone Black and White)
Whiskers Shape: Mysterious hiding Plush or better

On a breed-back to her father, the odds for their offspring are ...

Fur: Bengal Black 50%, Siamese Chocolate Tortie 25%. Siamese Chocolate Tortie or better 25%
Eyes: Apple 50%, Tapestry Organica 50%
Eye Shape: Curious 75%, Mysterious 25% (Top Job Boy is known to hide Mysterious)
Pupil Size: Small 100%
Shade: Natural 50%, Natural or better 50% (which is correct, but misleadingly optimistic; 100% Natural would be wrong odds, but more realistic)
Tail: Plush 50%, Plush or better 50% (again correct, but misleadingly optimistic; 100% Plush would be wrong odds, but more realistic)
Ears: Genesis 50%, Curious 50%
Whiskers: White 50%, 2 Tone Black and White 50%
Whiskers Shape: Mysterious 50%, Mysterious or better 50% (and, again, correct, but misleadingly optimistic; 100% Mysterious would be wrong odds, but more realistic)

If Bengal Black, it hides either Bengal Black (2/3) or Siamese Chocolate Tortie or better (1/3)
If Siamese Chocolate Tortie it hides Siamese Chocolate Tortie or better (1/1).
If anything else it will be pure (hide what it shows), recessive to Siamese Chocolate Tortie, and will prove both its own and Top Job Boy's hidden fur.

If Apple, it hides either Tapestry Organica (2/3) or Odyssey Bellini or better (1/3)
If Tapestry Organica, it hides Odyssey Bellini or better (1/1)

If Curious, it hides either Curious (2/3) or Mysterious (1/3)
If Mysterious it hides Mysterious

It will hide Small.

There is a vanishingly small chance the shade will not be Natural, in which case it hides Twinkle or better. If Natural the hidden is unknowable given only the above pedigree. Similarly for Plush and Mysterious whisker shape.

If Genesis ears, it hides either Curious (1/2) or Mysterious Odyssey Fold or better (1/2)
If Curious, it hides either Curious (2/3) or Mysterious Odyssey Fold or better (1/3)

If White, it hides either 2 Tone Black and White (1/2) or Latte or better (1/2)
If 2 Tone Black and White, it hides either 2 Tone Black and White (2/3) or Latte or better (1/3)
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 Thanks given by: fabioazevedo Oh , Buum Jansma
06-18-2015, 07:35 AM
Post: #7
RE: Newbie question about hidden trait
thanks for your reply Smile
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06-18-2015, 03:52 PM
Post: #8
RE: Newbie question about hidden trait
Just a question? Why do you want to breed Top Job Buum back to dad Top Job Boy? She has more recessive hiddens from her mom.

For example Dad has white whisker shown and b&w whisker hidden. Top Job Buum received dad's hidden b&w and mom's latte shown or more recessive. If you breed her back to dad you will either get dad's white or b&w. The latte possible hid can only pass as a hidden because both of dad's whiskers are more dominant.

You might want to breed dad Top Job Boy again to to Top Job Girl to try to create a boy and then put the brother and this girl together. That way you have a chance to get mom's more recessive traits out on dad's Tortie fur.

"In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this." Terry Pratchett
Der Kitty Mill
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 Thanks given by: MsMagick Resident , Songdog Woolley , Buum Jansma
06-25-2015, 01:02 AM (This post was last modified: 06-25-2015 01:11 AM by Buum Jansma.)
Post: #9
RE: Newbie question about hidden trait
Kayla, you completely right Exclamation
Right now 10 days later i understand more about the upgrading.
When i post it i was not sure how the hidden traits will pass, thinking to much about exceptions......Huh
actually it is a matter of pure logica (as Mr Spock did Always say) Just have a good look for the saga list for dom and res. traits.

The fun of breeding is the suprice when a trait show you don't expected, but thats just the same as winning a lottery ticked Smile the trait is hidden but you can't find it back in the visible pedigree Cool

The next step is to breed what you like to see yourself, but otherwise to prevent a overkill on the market i like to know about what is HOT and NOT.
I understand breeders will not brag about it, but i like the Foxie Salt & Pepper Mask with Odyssey Bellini eyes, but i find out on auctions that the Foxie Salt & Pepper Mask are a little bit out.

Ok, i understand when a new trait comes out it is HOT and the Pinks doing well for the girls and lady's Big Grin and ok it depends also on the combination of collors. A bengal black with black Whiskers don't look as well as Blonde Streaked Whiskers.
Chocolate whiskers are more resesive as the blond streaked, but i would think the kitten should have white whiskers but just drink ChocolateMilk and still have to wash his Whiskers Big Grin
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06-27-2015, 09:32 AM
Post: #10
RE: Newbie question about hidden trait
lol it depends on what you want. Some people prefer white whiskers on pink chats, so that's what they do. Many breeders prefer cats with more recessive traits. Some people don't like the emphasis on the most recessive traits. I look at it this way. It gets harder the more recessive the trait is to put it on and have it show. So buying a cat with more recessive traits is a shortcut -- can save weeks of breeding. That's why you'll hear people saying, "you saved me two weeks of work" or even months. People are less likely to pay for very very dominant traits because they are easy to put on -- why pay for something you can do yourself fairly easily? But put together a gorgeous cat with a combination of traits that has not or has rarely been seen and people will buy it even if it is an "old" fur or eyes (suddenly renamed classic) and it will be called a couture kitty. However you'll notice even with those kitties the traits can't all be mysterious, plush or curious. Why? those traits were here from the beginning so lots of cats have those traits together in just about any combo. But putting a newer recessive traits and having mysterious/plush or curious on one or two traits can still be a more unique traits. It's about making someting that people don't already have in their cattery. And when you consider that a huge percentage have over 1000 kittyboxes, you can see the challenge.

"In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this." Terry Pratchett
Der Kitty Mill
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