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How to get a starter cat to throw it's hidden fur
01-17-2014, 10:04 PM
Post: #11
RE: How to get a starter cat to throw it's hidden fur

Salt and peppah is my' go to' fur as well.

Always good to have one in your arsenal for stubborn pulls.

'Tads evil coin toss' can be a total pain in the ass.

If that thing keeps heaving the geni traits at you yer screwed.

Genesis squashes everything.


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01-18-2014, 03:19 PM (This post was last modified: 01-18-2014 03:25 PM by Mellyn Llewellyn.)
Post: #12
RE: How to get a starter cat to throw it's hidden fur
(01-13-2014 11:21 AM)sneakpastu Resident Wrote:  Have you tried this?

Have you unboxed the offspring and paired them to one of the parents? Sometimes it does not appear until the next generation.

You might want to try Balinese - Seal Lynx. I know that might seem a bit not with convention, but I have had moderate success getting the hidden fur and a few other traits. You will want a pure 9T though...meaning it's been a 9T for several generations (not just what is shown on the Pedigree).

That won't work in Ding's case. If Ding paired his starter with a kitty with a fur, any fur, and the baby got a genesis fur, that means the starter passed genesis, not its hidden fur. The baby won't hide anything from the starter. So opening the baby and breeding back to the starter will never produce the starter's hidden fur. Never, ever.

Also, breeding kitties is all about probability. No particular fur has any advantage over any others. If someone had good luck with Foxie S&P or Seal Lynx or something else, that's all it is is luck. It's just a coin toss, period. A breeder can learn to play those odds better through sibling breeding and back breeding, but it's still just heads or tails.
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 Thanks given by: Mari Halderman
01-19-2014, 11:41 PM
Post: #13
RE: How to get a starter cat to throw it's hidden fur
I've had better luck with stubborn pulls by going with what I call a "middle of the road" fur, or other trait. Pick a 9T fur in your cattery that falls somewhere in the middle of the dominant/recessiveness chart and try pulling with that. Sometimes the most recessive furs are too recessive, thus you continue to end up with gen furs.

~Zev
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01-21-2014, 07:53 AM
Post: #14
RE: How to get a starter cat to throw it's hidden fur
(01-19-2014 11:41 PM)Zevara Resident Wrote:  I've had better luck with stubborn pulls by going with what I call a "middle of the road" fur, or other trait. Pick a 9T fur in your cattery that falls somewhere in the middle of the dominant/recessiveness chart and try pulling with that. Sometimes the most recessive furs are too recessive, thus you continue to end up with gen furs.

~Zev

Where is Tad Smile
Sorry but there is no such thing as "pulling" a hidden fur from a genesis or any cat. Parents don't pull anything. The fur on the other parent has zero affect on whether or not the genesis cat passes its genesis or hidden fur. It is just a coin toss which fur the genesis cat passes.

If you don't know what fur the genesis cat hides, then use the most recessive other parent fur you can, or you may prevent the hidden fur from showing on the offspring. If you ~do~ know what fur the genesis cat is hiding, then use any parent with an equal or more recessive fur if you want the hidden fur to show.

If the fur showing on the offspring is genesis, it's just bad luck - keep trying. Changing parents won't help - it may just seem like it because if you try enough times the random odds will fall in your favor. If they happen to fall in your favor after changing parents, it is just a coincidence, but that is how these misconceptions get spread to new breeders.
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 Thanks given by: Ivy Norsk , HikariItsumo Resident , Mari Halderman
01-24-2014, 07:30 AM
Post: #15
RE: How to get a starter cat to throw it's hidden fur
(01-13-2014 11:21 AM)sneakpastu Resident Wrote:  You might want to try Balinese - Seal Lynx. I know that might seem a bit not with convention, but I have had moderate success getting the hidden fur and a few other traits. You will want a pure 9T though...meaning it's been a 9T for several generations (not just what is shown on the Pedigree).

A kitty that has 9 traits over several generations has absolutely no advantage over one that is a first gen 9T. In both cases they will have 9 shown and 9 hidden ( hidden will be either the same or more recessive ) and this is all that is taken into consideration when a new born is made, however many generations it has been 9T will not make the slightest difference to it's "pulling power" (However, the advantage in having a "pure" tree, with the same traits repeated does enter into play when one is trying to breed a certain set of more dominant traits, for example. One can be more or less sure that there aren't more recessive traits hidden which could botch the project.)

I think this misconception may have originated in the fact that with some other breedables (for example, Roos and fennux ) a "strong" tree is more likely to produce the desired uptiering but this isn't at all the case with the KC breeding system.

Still, i see more and more false infos flying around in general. Before, when there were less members we used to be able to nip these in the bud and keep most people straight about it but i think that most older contributors have given it up as a lost cause now.
Really informative and interesting forum threads have become few and far between in the past year or so. It's worth digging back in the general and breeding sections of the forum, the threads with the most posts usually contain some eye openers.

Auctions i know can be spawning grounds for much of this, people wanting to jump into the auction biz before they've really got the hang of the system, and also those who want to be "in the know" in the group chat.

I've been scratching my head for a while to try work out something to get facts back into place but all i can recommend really is keep going over Saga's docs until it sinks in, go to a reputed breeding class, don't be afraid to ask dumb questions, none of us were born with the infused science, we all had to learn at some point. But especially, don't just repeat what you've heard, test it thoroughly to see if it really applies before adopting it as gospel.

** So sorry to pick up again on something you posted Sneak, it's really nothing personal.
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01-24-2014, 10:30 AM
Post: #16
RE: How to get a starter cat to throw it's hidden fur
Genesis traits do not mean the end of breeding or a bad luck. Every kitty we have, it carries recessive (hidden) and dominant (showing) traits. All our collector and starter kitties ALWAYS hide a trait, but we just do not know what it is. By pairing it with 9T kitty could possibly give you the hidden traits, but the question is from which kitty? Is it from the collector or starter kitty or somewhere in the pedigree of the other kitty? When breeding with starter or collector kitty, you will get either genesis, the showing or hidden trait from the other kitty, or the hidden trait from the starter kitty. Let's say you got a genesis fur or eye and that is the toss of the coin, but is it really a toss of a coin? Are you really having a bad day with your kitties or is SL being a pain that day? We are dealing with 9 traits for a kitty, not only that, we are dealing what is hidden in each kitty plus we are multiplying our chances and probabilities to get a trait so this is where you might think it's a toss of a coin or others will say, pure luck.

I have been breeding other breedables since 2010 and Kittycats are more accurate with Mendelian theory. The question now is how do we really apply this theory to our adorable kitties? How do we know what is hidden in our collector kitty? What is the best technique? Is there a right method to use? There are so many techniques and methods you can use, but does one apply for all kitties? I hate to answer this, no it's not. You can do a combination of back breeding, test cross, or mate with other kitties. But the most important thing is what matters to you the most: time or cost or both. Besides time and cost, what are you trying to get out of your kitties? Are you particularly looking for a fur, eye, tail, ears, or whiskers? Are you trying to create a kitty of your own? These are the things we ponder. Also, you have to consider if you have other resources you can use while figuring out what is hiding.

As Anna said, take classes and ask question. If you don't ask questions, you will never know the answer. There is no stupid question.

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01-24-2014, 05:57 PM (This post was last modified: 01-24-2014 06:04 PM by Kayla Woodrunner.)
Post: #17
RE: How to get a starter cat to throw it's hidden fur
Salt and pepper is a pretty low fur and probably was the lowest for awhile from Dec 2012 through October 2013 when Snowshoe Cream was discovered. So it makes sense that it was a great fur to pull other furs because most other furs are dominant to it. People would get "lucky" with it because with if shown the mates dominant and recessive furs are likely to show so people are talking from experience even though they may be phrasing it in terms of luck.

It won't be until other more recessive furs are discovered that that would no longer be as true as with the Snowy Bengal. The older posts rave about the Snowy Bengal paired with starters. Then it changes to Bali cream. Now it's changing again to black or s&p foxes. Right now the Snowshoe Cream is so rare, hardly anyone has it even tho it may be the lowest at the moment.

I'm new (only 2 weeks, and only just getting my first kittens in the last week) but from what I read, Kittycats is evolving through its traits. Rumors are a way to be aware of the latest changes as long as a person researches to see what those rumors mean. People talking tell me what's most recessive right now: S&P foxie, blush, latte, etc. Recessive rumors led me to finding out about traits, which led to shown and hidden which led to Sagas chart. It took me a week to find it out. Sagas chart is better because it is very clear in the heirarchy but the talk of recessive will inevitably lead you to her charts.

So as a newbie, the rumors are ok as they lead to information. Just my two cents.
Oh, yeah just talking about pulling furs and not the other 8 traits, btw.
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01-25-2014, 02:37 AM
Post: #18
RE: How to get a starter cat to throw it's hidden fur
I wrote a concise description of the entire process for the Wiki.

http://kittycatsaddicts.com/wiki/Breeding_Basics

This describes everything you need to know about How It Works. Everything you need to know is on that page. Everything else must derive SOLELY from the process described on the page; if someone claims there is something else going on .. well .. to be frank .. they're wrong. There is nothing else going on. There are no other processes.

By application of those rules, we can learn about "hidden" values and the relationship ("dominance") between the various values. My page for that is also on the Wiki

http://kittycatsaddicts.com/wiki/How_to_Infer_Dominance

This page describes the logical process by which the information on Saga's charts was originally derived.

Finally, I put together a series of charts showing all possible production sets .. that is, all possible outcomes for a single trait from a single pair of parents.

http://kittycatsaddicts.com/wiki/Production_Charts

What you learn in breeding classes are various ways to describe and apply the rules, infer knowledge, and approach production.
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 Thanks given by: Crepe Myrtle
01-25-2014, 08:46 AM
Post: #19
RE: How to get a starter cat to throw it's hidden fur
Wonderful job, Tad.
(01-25-2014 02:37 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  I wrote a concise description of the entire process for the Wiki.
http://kittycatsaddicts.com/wiki/Breeding_Basics
http://kittycatsaddicts.com/wiki/How_to_Infer_Dominance
http://kittycatsaddicts.com/wiki/Production_Charts

Crepe MyrtleHeart
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