Eye shapes/pupils

[JC Aferdita]

So you know how Curious and Mysterious eye shape have different pupil-shapes too? The curious has a roundness to them and Mysterious has a pointyness to them. Wouldn't it be fun to have other shapes too? Like there could be a cat with heart-shaped pupils, or star-shaped or flower(?)-shaped.
I noticed that we keep getting eyecolours and furs and whiskers and whatnot, but the eyeshapes there's only two. It would be fun if there were more variety. I personally prefer the Curious eye shape over the Mysterious, but because of that I can never breed a 9T in my breedinglines, since I don't want the Mysterious. If that makes sense? So having more options would open up the windows of opportunities more I hope you like the suggestion.

[Tad Carlucci]

Once again, I come out opposed to adding pupil or eye shape trait values as doing so changes a core factor of the game.

In the mad rush to the latest-and-greatest, pupil size and eye shape are often overlooked. Therein lies a trap .. if one is not careful, since there are only two values, it's all-too-likely that, during the rush, one inadvertently creates offspring which hide Curious/Large eyes.

Increasing the number of values for eye shape and pupil size would actually speed the appearance of nine-trait specimen; speeding the inevitable price drops.

Think of it as a market-support factor.

[Ivy Norsk]

A couple of thoughts.
On the one hand, I agree with Tad regarding mechanics.

On the other hand, I'm plenty sick of a system that worships the 9T. There is NOTHING wrong with CURIOUS BIG eyes - they are darling, and it would be utterly refreshing to have people trying to breed for the appearance of a cat rather than just trying to get the "numbers" and most recessive completely regardless for what a cat actually looks like.
If adding extra eye values breaks the 9T game, hey, I would drink to that!

[Tad Carlucci]

My point, Ivy, is adding more eye values makes the nine-trait game EASIER, which leads to faster price drops.

My suggestion, in fact, would be, should new trait types appear, one should be akin to pupil size and eye shape with only two possible values to further slow the then-would-be-eleven trait counting game.

[JC Aferdita]

I don't get how it would make it easier? It's very easy right now as there are literally a TON of mysterious small eyed cats out there, pick two up and you're done with the eye shape. Because there is only that. Curious is the dominant of them, which is why I always have to introduce it anew whenever I breed mysterious eyeshaped cats to introduce a new tail or ear into my lines.

I'm not trying to break the market, I just want to make it a little more challenging and definitely more FUN to make a cat of your dreams. Be able to really make the cat your own.

[Tad Carlucci]

Quote:which is why I always have to introduce it anew whenever I breed mysterious eyeshaped cats to introduce a new tail or ear into my lines.

New discoveries tend to show curious/big and hide mysterious/small. This is more true earlier in the cycle.

Crossing these will not only tend to produce more of the same, but tend to discard the hidden mysterious/small. Careful breeders can avoid this using their skill and knowledge. If you're not careful, however, you'll find this this becoming more true with each generation.

If, however, there are more eye shapes or pupil sizes, the problem is greatly lessened. With more potential values, there is less potential for discarding 'a trait' when breeding to produce a new discovery, or to cross one into your established lines.

But, of course, as I said, skilled, experienced breeders can avoid the problem.

The issue, when introducing new eye shapes and pupil sizes, then, is not so much as issue for the skilled, experienced breeders themselves as a rite-of-passage on the road to becoming one. Adding additional eye shapes and pupil sizes lowers that barrier.

[LibGwen Resident]

You've all covered my first thoughts on this. There is another consideration: The KittyCatS' eyes are one of the reasons they are so appealing. Eyes are hard to get right, just ask an artist. Until KittyCatS came along, all the virtual animals I saw had unrealistic and often off-putting eyes. (Not naming names. Eyes don't bother some people and I wouldn't want to spoil their fun by making them suddenly notice!) Okay, we're "only" messing with the cats' pupil and maybe eyelid shape here, but I'd be afraid of introducing one that made people think "oh ick, how awful!" and made the cats hard to look at. There is in fact at least one KittyCatS fur which wasn't popular because it played against the eyes in a way that people disliked and avoided, although they didn't usually know why.

[Ivy Norsk]

I don't want to break the market - far from it. Wouldn't the market be happier if people didn't feel confined to buying 9T all the time? I mean, I do it too - it's how the system works right now. I think guitar whiskers look great on snowshoes, but am I going to be foolish enough to breed them that way? No.


This is Bryn Lilac. Notice the fabulous CURIOUS eyes. Some of the eyes are drawn bigger and fatter than others. Blushquartz is one of these. Grotto is another. To really get the full view and appreciation for these eyes they Should Be Curious.

I understand the 9T game, and mastering it means that you know what you're doing vis a vis breeding. But I also feel like once you've mastered it, you should be able to let it go. And there is no particular skill to just producing 9T cats.
None at all.
As jc says, all you do is buy 9T cats and boink them.
Experienced breeders can look at the pedigree and see if there's been some care taken or not, but if all anybody is looking for is 9T, well, then 9T suffices.

Tad Wrote:New discoveries tend to show curious/big and hide mysterious/small. This is more true earlier in the cycle.
Crossing these will not only tend to produce more of the same, but tend to discard the hidden mysterious/small. Careful breeders can avoid this using their skill and knowledge.

This is perfectly true, but rather misses the point - what if we don't WANT to have mysterious eyes. And of course, it's easy enough not not have mysterious eyes, since curious is dominant, but what if we would also like people to APPRECIATE the curious eyes.

Tad Wrote:But, of course, as I said, skilled, experienced breeders can avoid the problem.

You keep calling it a problem. But calling it a problem means you're trapped in the 9T game and not looking at the cats in and of themselves. Honestly, the world of KittyCatS and project cats can be bigger than that. Everything you've said about the dynamics/mechanics of adding extra eye traits making things 9T faster is true.
But maybe it could kick people's brains out of the myst/small groove. Then again, probably not. Given a multiplicity of ears, people go right for the scotty fold.

[Tad Carlucci]

When I say problem I mean it more in the mathematical sense than the psycho-social sense.

The name of the problem I am referring to is Genetic Drift. Simply stated (maybe overly simple, but hopefully clear enough) this is the tendency of a population to exhibit one value to the exclusion of all others. There is a critical prerequisite for this to occur: the trait must not effect fitness to survive and breed.

In terms of Eye Shape, for instance, this says that if the breeder is completely ignoring Eye Shape, while concentrating on other traits, their populations will tend, over time, to become either exclusively Curious or exclusively Mysterious. The longer the breeder ignores Eye Shape, the more likely this is to occur, and the deeper the problem becomes in their population, once it does.

Now, an experienced breeder will, of course, select for ALL traits. So, the prerequisite is violated for that population and Genetic Drift will not occur; and drift in the gene pool is under the direction of the breeder.

A less experienced breeder, however, might completely ignore Eye Shape while working hard to get the the right Eye Color and Fur with and Ear and Tail; only to find, when having reached those goals, that they have NO Curious (or Mysterious) genes left in the line. They will then be faced with crossing the Eye Shape trait in, diluting, or even hiding, their chosen Fur, Eye Color, etc. Effectively falling back to some earlier state in their breeding program and having to, once again, pull those traits back to the fore.

Yes, I will admit, this is all most important to those who push for trait counts, especially 9T specimen. The fact is, however, that is the major segment of the market.

Adding addition Eye Shapes or Pupil Sizes would make it MUCH easier to get a '9T' since, with more possible values, the Genetic Drift experienced by those less-skilled breeders will be more likely to fall on a 'counted' value rather than Curious/Big simple because there are more values.

[JC Aferdita]

I still don't see what the problem of adding more eyeshapes is. You have the exact same problem in the other traits. You get the fur down pat, but, oh darnit, you wanted booboo ears and you only have genesis to work with. You have to introduced a new cat into the line that has the booboo ears and then the line gets 'diluted'. Perhaps your wallet could only afford that one cat with booboo ears and the fur was way more dominant than the line you had been breeding. So it'd hide the fur that you had been working on. It's just how the game is, and I don't see how it would change with more eyeshapes. There's only two, so finding a cat with the right eyeshape with the right fur and 2-3 more correct traits is easy. Like really easy, add in another 3 eyeshapes and suddenly you might have to do a little digging to finding the right eyeshape, and the chances of it being on the right fur and other right traits is smaller. Not bigger.