Please Be Carefull !!

[Malicia Python]

I often found "ad phrases" like blabla in BG or "whatever-offspring". This might be implying there is something hidden in the cat that cant be there, but no lie in itself. But I found outright lies, too - also in the parents' names. Even worse, the same goes for a few auctioned cats I have seen, when the seller passes some info that just cant be right when you analyse the pedigree. Sitting in the audience, I found myself in a real dilemma if pointing out or no.

As a generel rule, check where the desired trait was hidden, if the other trait in that parent shows, the wanted one cant be there. Like you have a coco grandparent "Fawnhider" mixed with another fur. If the offspring is coco, the fawn gene cant have been passed by that cat. But keep in mind that you dont know what the other parent mght have passed. Best talk to the seller if they can prove to you these parents had cats with the trait you want.

Personally I name the boxes with the hidden traits when I can GRANT this trait is there (if a person can pull them is another question). When not sure I add a ? I think all the responsible sellers should cooperate here and not give in to the pressure to sell cats by misleading unaware buyers. This pays on the long run.

[anna Acanthus]

(02-16-2012 02:17 AM)Malicia Python Wrote:  As a generel rule, check where the desired trait was hidden, if the other trait in that parent shows, the wanted one cant be there. Like you have a coco grandparent "Fawnhider" mixed with another fur. If the offspring is coco, the fawn gene cant have been passed by that cat. But keep in mind that you dont know what the other parent mght have passed. Best talk to the seller if they can prove to you these parents had cats with the trait you want.

Yes this is exactly the case example i meant, simple as 1 2 3 for a seasoned breeder to detect .
And as for this happening at auctions i really think the auctioneer should check and inform the seller that they can't present the kitty as such if this is indeed the case.

[Saga Felix]

(02-16-2012 02:17 AM)Anna Acanthus Wrote:  And as for this happening at auctions i really think the auctioneer should check and inform the seller that they can't present the kitty as such if this is indeed the case.

I agree 100%, Anna - but I must also admit that as an auctioneer, you sometimes stand in a difficult dilemma, when the person who paid money for you to sell his/her cat added a comment that is wrong or misleading, or named the cat something wrong and misleading.
-That means that basically, we have to outright declare the seller as a liar - which many auctioneers obviously have trouble with. While it may seem so very easy to just speak the truth of things, do know that in some cases it is FAR from easy when you're in the situation.

Personally, I ALWAYS try to be honest about what a cat can and can't hide, even to the point where I completely disregard the seller's comments about it. It is a choice I have made, and most sellers have taken it well - a few even apologized for being mistaken and setting the wrong name or comment in the first place.

-However, I can't say that noone was EVER mislead on my auctions - it much depends on how well people pay attention. If a cat is named "I hide round ears!", I will openly say it if there is only a CHANCE that it hides round ears - but I most likely will not "rub it in" more than strictly necessary - I am not there to put anyone down for a mistake like that, or discredit an otherwise good breeder.

New auctioneers have previously asked me this question - "What on earth should I do when a seller provides wrong info??" - it IS a general nightmare of auctioneers, and something you have to decide with yourself before committing to sell other people's cats: How will I act in these cases.

While no sellers have really ever given me trouble for telling the (however unpleasant) truth about their cat, I have over the time received much praise from the buyers for being - albeit sometimes a bit too brutally - honest.

-And I sincerely hope that if and when people "catch" me in a mistake, they will let me know. No, I am NOT flawless! Once, after an auction, someone IM'ed me saying "Did panel X really hide this-and-that like you said??"... and taking a 2nd long look at the pedigree, NO... it did not! I was devastated, and asked the person that if they ever saw me making a mistake like that again, PLEASE to speak up!

-So that is my plea to you, dear auction-addicts - if you see an auctioneer make a mistake like that - myself included - dare to speak up!! I will almost guarantee you that if seller and/or auctioneer is honest - and really, MOST people are - you will get praise rather than grief if you politely point people's attention to something like that. Auctioneers & sellers would - if they're wise - rather have that, than end up with a reputation of mis-informing costumers.

Ok, this ended up as a long rant - but goes to show, I guess, that this topic is indeed something that is VERY relevant for auctioneers and their costumers. -Be aware of it - help us if we miss it ourselves. Thank you :-)

Saga

[anna Acanthus]

Yes Saga i can only imagine what a heavy job auctioneering can be and wrong selling info just one of the nightmares you have to deal with.

In fact i was really meaning blatantly obvious mistakes as in the case Malicia mentioned which could have heavy consequences in the case of a rare furs or trait.
But then i imagine that people bidding over say the 10K mark will have done a bit of homework and if the bidding went too high there would be at least few who'd have seen the error and hopefully point it out.

Also maybe there are some people becoming auctioneers before they have really learnt enough about breeding and traits ; i doubt that much gets past the more experienced auctioneers.

As for the very few unscrupulous dealers around i think word gets around pretty fast and they only have themselves to blame for their bad reputation.

Sorry didn't mean to get u ranting

[Malicia Python]

I am sure there are a lot of buyers, sellers and alas even auctioneers that dont know better. But as always, when it comes to money, you have scam.

I think you really have to tell the auctioneers from the "tip-whores" telling you everything to sell a cat as high as possible, get better tips and have the seller return. And those sellers know what auction lets them get away with some polishing tha cats' potential. Unfortunately there are always new people at the auctions and shops and those scammers get fresh prey all the time.

[Sanura Snowpaw]

I can totally agree with Saga and many times myself I look at the pedigree and question the seller if I have a question. That said please, Please, PLEASE let me know if you think I made a mistake, I am far from an expert and love to learn more about this wonderful little beings that have taken over my life. I've always thought auctions are wonderful place to learn, be it from myself or from others in the crowd, as well sell beautiful kittehs.

I have seen some boxes marked in certain ways I would question it. I do not think it is done maliciously, at least not for most within the community. We do have a wonderful community who are always helping each other and sharing our knowledge so when you see something questionable speak up and ask the seller or a trusted friend or hell you can IM me and find out more.

<3

[anna Acanthus]

STILL seeing things like " I hide ..... "
This on boxes/kitties who have 2 parents with the same fur as it does.
The parents hide another fur for sure but there is absolutely NO guarantee that their OS carries too

ex : I have 2 blacks with Siam Flame parents and they give me either Flame or Black about 50% of the time.
Now when they give me a Black there's a chance it'll carry Flame but a good chance it'll just be hiding Black too, and i don't even open them let alone try sell them as " I hide Siamese Flame " and at a higher price than for a 7/8 T Black.

I also have my ody sublimes do me a "favour" sometimes and pull their hidden ody rainbow so no mention of " mom and dad are ody sublime " when i sell and no way can sublime be there as it's dom to rainbow. In fact think i'll go name the box " I CANT hide ody sublime " just in case.

Being straight and knowing your facts 99% before asking a lot for a kitty may not pay in the short term but I believe it does in the long and you sure feel better about yourself.

But ok we can all make mistakes.

[Khea Karas]

(02-24-2012 05:37 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  ex : I have 2 blacks with Siam Flame parents and they give me either Flame or Black about 50% of the time.
Now when they give me a Black there's a chance it'll carry Flame but a good chance it'll just be hiding Black too, and i don't even open them let alone try sell them as " I hide Siamese Flame " and at a higher price than for a 7/8 T Black.

If by "Blacks" you mean Russian Blacks, then these will be hiding flame Unless a "pure" (in which case its very rare to have a pure cat...another explanation entirely...) the cat will ALWAYS have a hidden and a shown fur, the shown being the dominant one, and the hidden being the recessive one.

This applies to all traits, not just furs.

[anna Acanthus]

Well i really can't agree there khea, and i have pages of pedigree which tell me that unhappily pure isn't rare.

In real life genetics of course, nature in it's wisdom abhors this and avoids at all costs as it's a sterile dead end, even thwarting man's most intensive (and cretinous) efforts to denature the DNA. So totally pure bred is of course not only rare but can't even exist i believe.

Also the DNA functions in an exponential manner in resonance with the golden number ( google Fibonnaci ), an extremely far cry from the very limited binary code ( linear) which regulates the breeding functions of our sl kitties, more precisely it's down to just 2 choices in my case example : shown pulls shown (same), or hidden pulls shown , if more recessive than shown.

So in fact only the person who writes the random lines for the server can really tell us exactly the % of chances of obtaining a "pure" in this precise case, if you wouldn't mind KCA

[Khea Karas]

Pure just means the cat cannot breed out anything more than what it is showing in relation to what is being called "Pure". However keep in mind it is VERY often that a cat is not pure because recessive traits can hide for many generations. Generally the only truly pure traits are the most recessive traits because they can go no further. Many ppl label their cats "pure" because they think breeding two of the same together will make it so. This is not the case. There is no such thing as a "strong line of traits" or "pure line" unless you know for a fact the cat does not hide anything more, or if it is showing the most recessive of all traits.

For me, the following doc confirms my belief :

Quote:Confirmed Facts About KittyCats Traits:
---------------------------------------------------

-A KittyCat has TWO "genes" per trait you see - a visible trait and a hidden trait. Traits in this context can of course also be genesis traits.

-BOTH a KittyCat's traits, hidden & visible, will be from the parents - one from mom, one from dad.

-Hidden traits can become visible and vice versa, and hidden traits can be inherited and remain hidden through generations.

-If a kitten has mom's VISIBLE fur, it cannot also have a HIDDEN fur trait from her - the hidden fur trait will then be from dad.

-The visible trait is ALWAYS more dominant than the hidden trait.
-So when two cats breed, they both pass either their hidden or visible trait, and the kitten will have the more dominant of those two traits as the shown trait, and the less dominant as the hidden trait.

-There are NO random traits in KittyCats, except in newborn starter cats (Including Special Edition cats - all cats that says "Starter" under parent info)

-Two traits cannot "morph" into a third trait. If a trait appears "out of nowhere", it is because it has been passed as a hidden trait through generations.

The above facts are confirmed by Equinox Pinion, one of the creators of KittyCats in the “KittyCats Addicts” group chat in the afternoon of 28. May 2011.
I added the two last facts that were both confirmed later, one in a private conversation, the other also in KittyCats Addicts Group Chat, 12/7 2011.

Taken from Saga's docs.