does every starter have a hidden fur?

[Tad Carlucci]

Wow. That's quite a string of bad luck. The odds of getting Mom's Smokey IV are 50% (1-in-2). That puts the odds of a run of 10 at 1-in-1024 (just shy of 0.1%). That's not horribly unlikely, and we must expect it (or worse) will occur.

I want to take a moment and point out one of the rules used: the genetics for a box are set when the box appears. For offspring produced in-world or in the Cattery, this is when the box is created. For Starters, however, this is when you remove the box from the delivery package and place it in-world. Pulling it from the pack to your inventory does NOT set the genetics for Starters. When the genetics are set, the selection is from the then-current traits. For some Special Collection Starters, certain genetics are guaranteed, and only available for that Special. In this case, even if the trait value has been retired, the Starter will still carry it.

Once the box has been placed in-world or in the Cattery, the genetic payload is FIXED. It will never change. If your goal is to directly show, in the first generation, your chosen partner will either work, or it won't work, as was stated. If you goal is to expose in the second generation, any partner will do .. those that won't work in the first generation can produce offspring which will work as a breed-back for a second generation.

As to which partner is "best" .. that depends upon a number of factors such as what you have available, what you can purchase, what your goals are, and what other goals you might have for other cats, etc.

There is, however, a "worst choice" which is virtually always your worst choice .. that is a partner showing the same values. In Fabio's case, for example, if he had made the mistake of using males also showing Smokey IV, the odds, per offspring, change from 1-in-2 to 3-in-4, and his run-of-10 odds change from 1-in-1024 to about 1-in-18 (from 0.1% to 5.6%) .. in other words, he would have been AT LEAST 56 TIMES more likely to obtain the outcome shown had he made the error. Luckily (or should I say 'intentionally' since luck had nothing to do with it) he didn't make the mistake and simply had a bad couple of months.

[Mellyn Llewellyn]

3) You get a fur which is neither parent's shown fur. This might be success. Check Saga's charts. If the box shows a fur which is dominant to the mate, it is the starter's hidden fur trait and you have succeeded. If it is not, it is functionally identical to result (2) above. The odds of this result are either 0 (impossible), 1-in-2, or 1-in-4. If the box shows a fur which is recessive to the mate, the starter hides something even more recessive. The current pair can NEVER show the starter's hidden; switch to the offspring box, replacing your original mate-parent, as with case

Tad, if the box shows a fur recessive to the mate's fur, couldn't that be the starter's hidden fur and the mate's hidden fur happens to be more recessive?

[Tad Carlucci]

Let me use A B C and D since they imply order. Where A is a Genesis fur STARTER and B, C and D are not Genesis. The possibilities are

Ab x Bb => Ab (case 1) Ab (case 1) Bb (both case 2 and case 3 unknowable success) Bb (both case 2 and case 3 unknowable success)
Ab x Bc => Ab (case 1) Ac (case 1) Bb (both case 2 and case 3 unknowable success) Bc (both case 2 and case 3 unknowable success)
[ The above two can be avoided by ensuring the shown B on the chosen mate is RETIRED. ]

Ab x Cc => Ac (case 1) Ac (case 1) Bc (case 3 success) Bc (case 3 success)
Ab x Cd => Ac (case 1) Ad (case 1) Bc (case 3 success) Bd (case 3 success)
[About half the time a mid-level showing mate will be one of the above two cases. Why? if C is the mid-point it's 50/50 the hidden will be more dominant, hence is B]

Ac x Bb => Ab (case 1) Ab (case 1) Bc (case 2) Bc (case 2)
Ac x Bc => Ab (case 1) Ac (case 1) Bc (case 2) Cc (case 3, unknowable success)
Ac x Bd => Ab (case 1) Ad (case 1) Bc (case 2) Cd (case 3, unknowable success)
Ad x Bc => Ab (case 1) Ac (case 1) Bd (case 2) Cd (case 3 unknowable, breed back to Ad for 1-in-4 Dd success)

I've eliminates redundancy such as "Ab x Dd" since this is identical to "Ab x Cc"; or "Ac x Dd" which is identical to "Ab x Cc".

Your question has to do with the unknowable outcomes (Cc and Cd, in the lines above).

Avoiding these two cases is why many recommend going as deep as possible.

I suggest that half the time, you're wasting your deep fur mate because you won't get these cases. If you get an offspring showing recessive to the mate (the Cc and Cd outcomes, above), then you should switch to your more deeply recessive options in the hopes of eliminating the unknowable (Cc and Cd) outcomes.

Gee, I hope I'm done refining this post

[Morgan Trevellion]

Well thanks all, i finally got a fur and its Burmese Blue, and thanks Tad your advice worked

[fabioazevedo Oh]

(07-10-2014 08:31 AM)Morgan Trevellion Wrote:  Well thanks all, i finally got a fur and its Burmese Blue, and thanks Tad your advice worked

Congratulations, Morgan. Glad you did not give up.


well, I've also hidden a fur this week.

[Morgan Trevellion]

oh well Fabio no choc torties for us i guess lol

[Terrariea Resident]

I dont Think they have to hide a trait. But i have to proof it.

A starter must hide a hidden fur yes, but it does not have to be a "trait", im pretty sure my genesis starter gave me Another genesis fur longtime ago, but i will post proof if i ever find it cause now im getting unsure if it was truly true it was a starter.. But are you all 100% Sure s starter must hide traits? cause yes all cats have a hidden fur, Eye, eyeshape, pupil, shade, tail, ear, whisker color, whisker shape.. but they can be some gen? But atleast it have to be hiding 1 thing (out of 9?)

[Tad Carlucci]

No starter, normal or Special Collection, can hide a Genesis fur of any kind. Most likely, you're remembering a starter which passed the visible trait, or you put to starters together and the offspring was genesis and hid genesis. So, you're probably correct, you're remembering an offspring.

Remember, Genesis furs ARE trait values! It's just, by convention, we don't "count" them as such.

And, technically, the trait is "fur" and the values are things like "Genesis - Smokey IV"; all cats have nine breedable traits and two non-breedable traits (gender and size). For each breedable trait, all cats have exactly two values: the dominant and the recessive. There is also a visible trait value; for most cats, it's the same as the dominant .. but for Special Collaction cats, it's a special value specific to the collection.

Here's an article I wrote which may explain it better. http://kittycatsaddicts.com/wiki/Breeding_Basics

[HikariItsumo Resident]

I would just like to add to this post in case people don't go and read the article on the wiki :

Starters are guaranteed to hide at least 6 traits out of 9 : eye shape, pupil size and shade are not guaranteed, the 6 other traits are.

Hikari

[Kayleigh McMillan]

(08-28-2014 02:30 PM)Terrariea Resident Wrote:  I dont Think they have to hide a trait. But i have to proof it.

A starter must hide a hidden fur yes, but it does not have to be a "trait", im pretty sure my genesis starter gave me Another genesis fur longtime ago, but i will post proof if i ever find it cause now im getting unsure if it was truly true it was a starter.. But are you all 100% Sure s starter must hide traits? cause yes all cats have a hidden fur, Eye, eyeshape, pupil, shade, tail, ear, whisker color, whisker shape.. but they can be some gen? But atleast it have to be hiding 1 thing (out of 9?)

I have asked Equinox during a Q&A, a while back, if every starter hides non Genesis traits and she confirmed they did.
The only exception would be as I recall that they do not always hide a Shade and not always hide as we call it the perfect eyes but always a non Genesis Eye color and I believe they can hide the silver or Guitar Whiskers but about the whisker thing I am unsure.