Please Be Carefull !!

[anna Acanthus]

Hi there Miu

You are correct in advertising both girls as hiding Snow Cream.
This fur us recessive to both S&P and to Bali Cream; a dominant fur or any trait can never hide behind a recessive, only vice-versa.

A word of advice however, when a very recessive fur is shown there is no advantage to breeding to another recessive, it's much better to use well traited more dominant furs as you have far more scope for back breeding then.

In the case of Cynthia in fact, whoever buys her will need to already have either a Snow Cream or a Siam Tortie to easily produce another Snow Cream as there is nothing between S&P and Snow cream to use. If she is bred with anything else then there will be no way of knowing if the Cream has passed to the OS or not.
So Libera would be the best choice for a buyer as there are 4 furs to choose from between Bali Cream and Snow Cream.

Hope this makes sense.

[MiuKitten Resident]

(03-27-2014 03:52 PM)anna acanthus Wrote:  Hi there Miu

You are correct in advertising both girls as hiding Snow Cream.
This fur us recessive to both S&P and to Bali Cream; a dominant fur or any trait can never hide behind a recessive, only vice-versa.

A word of advice however, when a very recessive fur is shown there is no advantage to breeding to another recessive, it's much better to use well traited more dominant furs as you have far more scope for back breeding then.

In the case of Cynthia in fact, whoever buys her will need to already have either a Snow Cream or a Siam Tortie to easily produce another Snow Cream as there is nothing between S&P and Snow cream to use. If she is bred with anything else then there will be no way of knowing if the Cream has passed to the OS or not.
So Libera would be the best choice for a buyer as there are 4 furs to choose from between Bali Cream and Snow Cream.

Hope this makes sense.

Thank you! Yes that does make sense but I hadn't thought about it before. Okay well now I know I'm on the right track with identifying hidden traits. I have managed to breed my Snowshoe Creams with some other well-traited cats and am getting ahold of nice Snows with recessive eyes and shades, which is great. Thanks so much!

[anna Acanthus]

I'm quoting this post from relatively new breeder from a different thread ( http://kittycats.biz/forum/showthread.ph...424&page=3 ) as it eloquently sums up most of the points that had been discussed in this thread :

(04-20-2014 10:52 PM)EmberMichaels Resident Wrote:  I will admit I have not read every post in this thread so if I am simply repeating what other people have pointed out I apologize.

I personally have huge issue with people who place cats for sale and say for example "hides snowshoe cream." Then leave no pedigree link to be viewed by the potential buyer.

Hides is very confusing for new breeders, who easily trust those who have been doing it much longer and seem wiser.

My best advice .. never buy a cat because someone claims it "hides" without a pedigree link, as well if you aren't 100pct sure if it really does. Ask a friend to help.

Nothing makes me madder then a wet hen, or wet cat .. as when I see "My dad was a Bengal black." On a salt and pepper shown.

Sure Dad was a Bengal black .. but that doesn't mean anything .. the Recessive has come over top of the dominant .. black Bengal is lost... you will never get a Black Bengal from that unless you breed it with a Black Bengal or a Black Bengal proven hider and manage to breed out the black Bengal fur from the mate of the salt and pepper.

Just as the market is down right now I see a lot of cats misrepresented .. perhaps some just don't know better but I see names of other I know do.

We were all new breeders once, we all bought the wrong cats for the wrong prices once.

It just drives me batty when I see things like this .. I imagine some poor new breeder buying this cat with hopes and dreams of a fur .. and can never get one from the cat.
Wasting food and milk and feeling disappointment and questioning what they are doing wrong because they just don't understand. This cat's dad was a Black Bengal .. why am I not getting one?

I speak from experience on this, after being sold a cat I was told hid Bengal black that was a shown Salt and Pepper .. I started KittyCats right around the time the Christmas Cats came out. Someone even sold me a Silent Night Assuring me the costume was the fur and if bred right I would get that fur/costume on every kitten.

So I speak from the bitterness of someone who was a naïve new breeder, and out of concern for new breeders NOT to make my mistakes and waste the 10's of thousands of Lindens I did on bad cats. It wasn't until I found friends, they know they are who took the time to be patient and help me that I could afford to buy the newish .. furs because I wasn't wasting my money on poorly traited cats, feeding them all and opening all the boxes because they were so cute. It was only after meeting these people that I learned how to manage (almost) the addiction to at least get close to supporting my cats within sl and not having to put smoke on my credit card for the hobby I love.

That 5k you're charging someone for that cat that's only worth 700, that could be someone's coffee money for a week... you know come on people .. it's pretend money but it costs real money to buy.

Misrepresent a cat when you know better ... you might as well steal a kids lunch money or grab that old ladies purse. For all you know it is some kids lunch money.

Same goes for cats I see on bid boards stating "My Dad was a Mega." ... how nice .. so what ... sizes don't pass and there are people out there who do not yet understand this.

Those who don't know ... ask for help if you're not sure that cats worth 1500l
Those who know better stop it.
And look me up if you don't have anyone to ask .. if I'm online and you don't know if a cat hides something, or if its bs ... ask me .. I will help to the absolute best of my ability.

Am I kitty cats Guru? Far from it, but I'll share what I know.

I am tired of meeting people who have been taken advantage of, sold cats and told to breed them that they cannot even make kittens that would cover mom and dad's food if they actually managed to sell them.

Yes it is a buyer beware market, but I wish it didn't have to be for new breeders.

95 pct of people I have met and interact in kitty cats have been wonderful and gone out of their way to help me not make the mistakes I made as new breeders... It's the 5pct that really sour the pot.

Just My Two Cents

[Lea Solaris Morrison

I'd just mention that some of the 5% aren't familiar enough with the system to know better yet, and also they and others may not know how to activate the pedigree.
All the same, if, as a seller, you aren't yet sure of yourself then please refrain from making claims of this nature.

Above all and for the umpteenth time if, as a buyer you don't have sure proof of the claimed hiddens, do NOT throw your money away but get help from someone who DOES know first.

[Hathor Xaris]

I can't believe you guys talked about this on the forum a year ago an ppl are still being duped, maybe someday someone will get around to making a clear and concise laymen termed blog dedicated just to this, then no one will ever question if someone is being truthful or snobby again they will just say what was that extremely useful and easy to understand clear cut to the point url again? Unless of course the ppl who like making money duping other ppl have any protest, ( hint of sarcasm here ) not sure exactly how many of you are out there but I like to think that the good ppl still out number you, good ppl are like an antivirus or white blood cells, and bad ppl are like pathogens destined to be outnumbered by the latter.

And the funny thing is ;
YOU ALL KNOW WHO YOU ARE, but the sad thing is why it is suddenly so hard to tell the difference...?

Reminds me of my favorite Jack Handy Quote:
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it." Jack Handy 1992 SNL

[Hathor Xaris]

ohhh and btw in reference to what Ember said above;
" Same goes for cats I see on bid boards stating "My Dad was a Mega." ... how nice .. so what ... sizes don't pass and there are people out there who do not yet understand this."

i was told in the beginning that sizes are random but if you were to create a long line of megas or rare sized cats that it would somehow INCREASE your chances, and after trying that out i found it to pretty much NOT be true, but it was expensive trying anyone else have any useful info to challenge this fact then i'm all ears but after hearing conflicting things and having my OWN Experiences I would have to say it that sizes are definitely indeed RANDOM, but you can imagine after being told this how I at first was labeling my cats dad was a mega and what not, so yeah Ignorance is not limited to STUPID people, oooh nooo the nicest and even smartest of us can be duped easily enuf, especially when there is greed involved, figuratively speaking being innocent; it's the kind of thing we would never do to you and so would never even assume you would do it to us, But what really sucks are things like being told the wrong info at a class or having ppl tell you your cats are mislabeled when they arent yes even that has happened ppl arguing with me and it turned out THEY were wrong and my cat was NOT mislabeled you can imagine the next person who comes up to me saying my cat is mislabled (* and this time it was ) but how i might react emotionally to this after being accused a few minutes ago mistakenly and then to top it off evreyone who who passes by my cat actually thinks I'M trying to scam them. ...i just stand back and I'm like really?? Is this all even neccasarry, i'm just trying to have a good time here while conducting normal sl commerce...I don't want to make anyone angry or upset them, i just want to do the right thing and i kind like it when others want that too.

[LyricaBlues Resident]

Nice Thread! Another Caveat might be to Count Traits before buying...Although i am certain that its by accident, and that newcommers may not understand it, but I have seen very often lately kitty label being incorrect. An 8T that turns out to be a 5T but the seller added 3 because it had some desirable traits (and i dont mean the +1 for size). To new people I always say "KittyCats are the Only ones who decide what a Trait is, not breeders or sellers". It most definitely Is Caveat Emptor, however, in the spirit of fair play we need to be careful how we label kitties and not assume everyone will count and understand traits. As the old Russian proverb says, "Trust but Verify" LOL

[Choden Resident]

~ BUMP ~ ~ BUMP ~ ~ BUMP ~

Very helpful thread. I really hate when I go to shop boxes or live kitties and there is no pedigree provided.

The easiest way just go to your account and click view pedigree link if the breeders are lazy to provide pedigree giver.

I suspected, just my guessing that one of the reasons that there is no pedigree link is the breeder is hiding something like just simply breed out two breeders' kitties and make a quick sale.

I don't mind at all, just provide pedigree links for buyers so we can know what potential hidden traits will be before I buy that box or live kitty.

Peronsally, I won't buy any box or any kitty that doesn't provide pedigree link.

[Adana Ember]

(05-18-2014 01:01 PM)Choden Resident Wrote:  Peronsally, I won't buy any box or any kitty that doesn't provide pedigree link.

Ah, forgive me, for those of us who are still learning... how does one provide a pedigree link?

[Choden Resident]

Go to KittyCats website, click "My Account" and you have see a checkbox says

"Allow browsing of all previous generations from In World Pedigree links", click that if you want to save time to provide in-world pedigree giver.

You can always ask in group chat from any CSR to give you the pedigree script to put in any object you want to show pedigree. All you have to do is copy the KittyCats ID# into the "description" of an object with the pedigree script. Ask around, I am sure many friendly KC members will help you to set up one that fits your need.

It is alright to start from somewhere as a new breeder, we all started from there. Well, as a buyer, I bet we all like to get the pedigree information of that box or live kitty that we want to buy. So, think of as a cosumer, what would you like to know when you shop. That's about it. Hope it helps new breeders to understand.

[Adana Ember]

(05-18-2014 01:15 PM)Choden Resident Wrote:  Go to KittyCats website, click "My Account" and you have see a checkbox says

"Allow browsing of all previous generations from In World Pedigree links", click that if you want to save time to provide in-world pedigree giver.

Thanks! I've been wondering how that was set.