DOn't Say HIDE!?!

[Hathor Xaris]

It's too confusing...wish it wasn't so but its really hard for us new ppl to understand the correct use of the terminology HIDE

But is it ok instead for me to mention relative traits in the ped and put ped pics n let the buyer decide what they r getting into themselves without suggesting i know what the in the heck HIDE actually means...

k..just making sure...its k...

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any sugeestions or extremely lengthy explanations is greatly appreciated, and yes i have read read read evrything...just still need help UNDERSTANDING

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i speak english or at least i thought i did

[Hathor Xaris]

k so i cheked with one of my teachers and she xplained things quite clearly to me what i had originally thought was correct after all, "Hidden" means the recessive trait that is "NOT Shown" , but every now and then dominant traits can be hidden but it's rare... this is something i have understood pretty much from day one, but someone told me something today that kinda confused me from this by saying to me it could only be the father who gives a hidden trait meaning females don't pass down any hidden traits, now im sure the confusion is solely my fault in this instance with trying to understand what they were trying to say. if anyone wants to help un-confuse me further or re-confuse me more i say go for it im gracious for any feedback whatsoever or just simple thoughts on the matter!

It would be nice to know what other newbies have experienced with this topic.

[Tad Carlucci]

http://kittycatsaddicts.com/wiki/Breeding_Basics

[Hathor Xaris]

yes ty i have read evrything like i said but theres no harm in reading it again right?
anyways i have found a solution to the confusion YAY with the help of my awesome teacher

instead of saying Hide on things like these newer recessive traits on a bidboard ill say BREED WITH BENGAL or BREED WITH SNOWSHOE CREAM or something to that effect, this lets the buyer know that this is a special kitty probably from a line of that rare trait since i do have quite a few different lines of rare traits i back crossed myself , cause I now realize that not evryone else has experience breeding these new guys , but experienced breeders should be able to recognize from looking at my peds that you can and will be getting the same kind of offspring if you follow what i did in my peds. Like for example i got a whole lotta bengal blacks from just 1 i started with ( my little Madeline ) and i paid 20K for her ouch..heh but in the end actually it was worth it, i bred her with a foxie salt & pepper named Balder all he had in his ped were Pandies, so i get bengal blacks from him and her bout 50 % of the time so u can imagine now i have lots of bengal blacks and foxies with good breeding capabilities with bengal blacks, i guess the best weapon in the marketing arsenal is knowledge after all and so now you all know how i got so many bengals please check the ped pics i left of my original breeding pair and leave comments if u like

Madeline
https://www.flickr.com/photos/34628696@N03/13278217375/

Madelines kittens
https://www.flickr.com/photos/34628696@N03/13278552574/
( would you beleive i never get bengals from her son Riely, lol he was def an accident kitty his father is an abyssinian ruddy...yea i know...)

Madeline and her Mate Balder
https://www.flickr.com/photos/34628696@N03/13278355533/

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Im gonna post more photos of my cattery on flickr - that was fun - it was my first time and i do oh so luv photography look forward to that

[Hathor Xaris]

i just saw a phrase i think i should adopt as well instead of HIDE ...." not shown" would that be correct breeding terminology when referring to my breeders ? i hope so , cause the last thing i want to do is confuse anyone like myself who doesnt really have a good grasp on correct kittycats breeding terminolgy just yet

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I know also as a breeder I certainly want to cater to other breeders of all kind both new & old.

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I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to afford to breed hundreds upon hundreds of kittys in less than 4 months since i began breeding in dec. 2013... so i have to say my learning experience has indeed been unique and quite fast tracked.

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can we say over 5000L a day in food uhhgg...maybe some of you were there when i had to clean out my cattery ... laughs
I unloaded hundred upon hundreds of RL money into the kittycats community in my short time breeding, I bought kittys from so many different breeders, All My rare Traits were bought not bred by me, except for a few new ones I recently bred myself which was from pure luck of course ( I got ocicat blacks from romaticats and pewter eyes and serenity eyes from my pink birthday cat), I originally bought all the rarest traits not long ago back when they were 20K each , I started with only one of everything, and after taking only one class, asking a lot of questions and reading literally everything I've managed to successfully breed lots of everything, at first it was tricky but after a few tries at it, it became much easier, so I may not be savvy about lingo but I think its safe to say I deserve the quick knowledge I've obtained about breeding, but when it comes to obtaining knowledge, to me it just like the Kittycats family, there's always room for more!

To Breed or Not to Breed...that is the Question

[anna Acanthus]

(03-19-2014 06:31 PM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  k so i cheked with one of my teachers and she xplained things quite clearly to me what i had originally thought was correct after all, "Hidden" means the recessive trait that is "NOT Shown" , but every now and then dominant traits can be hidden but it's rare... this is something i have understood pretty much from day one, but someone told me something today that kinda confused me from this by saying to me it could only be the father who gives a hidden trait meaning females don't pass down any hidden traits, now im sure the confusion is solely my fault in this instance with trying to understand what they were trying to say. if anyone wants to help un-confuse me further or re-confuse me more i say go for it im gracious for any feedback whatsoever or just simple thoughts on the matter!

It would be nice to know what other newbies have experienced with this topic.

Woah there !
Whoever told you that occasionally , now and then dominant traits can be hidden behind a recessive needs to take classes themselves. This is probably the result of misreading a pedigree or the trait charts. I'd stick my neck out and say this just can't happen as the server "knows" the dominance order and cannot provide otherwise.

Also you can totally forget about the father being the only one to pass hidden traits. Absolutely untrue, both genders have equal chances of passing their hidden traits.

I just hope that the person(s) who provided you with these informations aren't giving breeding classes.
So, unless you misunderstood what they were explaining then i strongly suggest that you discreetly find another mentor.

Anyhow good luck with all your projects and i'm sure that you'll soon have it all worked out

[Maxwell Grantly]

I am sorry to hear that there is confusion in the concept of “hidden” traits. A picture is worth a thousand words and so I hope that this picture may help you to understand.

((To make things easier, just focus on the eye colour of the three Foxie-Auburn kitties.))



Please look at the eye colour of Holly. She has Canary eyes and, when you look at her parents, it is clear that the gene came from her father, Oak. Canary is more dominant than Rainbow Prism and so you can be 100% certain that her mother, Ash, did not contain this gene.

Therefore, the next question to ask is this: Can we deduce what Holly’s recessive gene is? The answer is categorically, “No.” Some inexperienced breeders may place Holly out to sale and promote her sale by claiming that she has hidden “Rainbow Prism” genes from her mother, Ash.

Indeed, if you were to check the pedigree of Holly, you could even be mistaken for believing this, as the pedigree chart of Holly does actually verify that her mother, Ash, bears Rainbow Prism eyes.

The problem with all this is that you cannot be sure that Ash is pure in her Rainbow Prism eye gene. There is a chance that there is a second (more recessive) gene hidden beneath her Rainbow Prism eyes; a gene that has not yet shown itself. Even if the mother Ash came from a long line of parents and grandparents, all bearing Rainbow Prism eyes, it is not unknown for a gene to be masked and laying hidden beneath.

Therefore, when a breeder sells a box and claims that the hidden gene for a specific trait is “X” ~ it is often misleading. It would only be after many months of breeding (if you manage to pull the hidden gene out) that you can verify this. Just imagine your frustration if you were to buy a box under the false hope that it contained the gene that you wanted, as a hidden gene, only to discover two or three months later that you were duped. You would have wasted your purchase Lindens but, more important, you would have wasted some three months of breeding time.


((Incidentally, as stated above, dominant traits can never hide behind recessive traits. Also, the sex of a parent does not have any bearing on which trait is passed or hidden.))

[Junie Nova]

I just want to say a BIG thank you to you Maxwell, not only for this explanation but also for the wonderful webpage you made regarding the back breeding technique you used in your vampire kitty project. I've learned so much from your webpage that I probably would have otherwise spent months trying to work out for myself.

It's people like you, Tad with his build-a-kitty page, Anna with her beautifully precise explanations and others (too many to mention) whom help those of us new to breeding find our way through some of those initial breeding mysteries . Thank you all so much.

Sorry for cutting in on your thread Hathor, but I just felt I had to give kudos where it's due.

[Hathor Xaris]

(03-20-2014 02:49 AM)Maxwell Grantly Wrote:  I am sorry to hear that there is confusion in the concept of “hidden” traits. A picture is worth a thousand words and so I hope that this picture may help you to understand.

((To make things easier, just focus on the eye colour of the three Foxie-Auburn kitties.))



Please look at the eye colour of Holly. She has Canary eyes and, when you look at her parents, it is clear that the gene came from her father, Oak. Canary is more dominant than Rainbow Prism and so you can be 100% certain that her mother, Ash, did not contain this gene.

Therefore, the next question to ask is this: Can we deduce what Holly’s recessive gene is? The answer is categorically, “No.” Some inexperienced breeders may place Holly out to sale and promote her sale by claiming that she has hidden “Rainbow Prism” genes from her mother, Ash.

Indeed, if you were to check the pedigree of Holly, you could even be mistaken for believing this, as the pedigree chart of Holly does actually verify that her mother, Ash, bears Rainbow Prism eyes.

The problem with all this is that you cannot be sure that Ash is pure in her Rainbow Prism eye gene. There is a chance that there is a second (more recessive) gene hidden beneath her Rainbow Prism eyes; a gene that has not yet shown itself. Even if the mother Ash came from a long line of parents and grandparents, all bearing Rainbow Prism eyes, it is not unknown for a gene to be masked and laying hidden beneath.

Therefore, when a breeder sells a box and claims that the hidden gene for a specific trait is “X” ~ it is often misleading. It would only be after many months of breeding (if you manage to pull the hidden gene out) that you can verify this. Just imagine your frustration if you were to buy a box under the false hope that it contained the gene that you wanted, as a hidden gene, only to discover two or three months later that you were duped. You would have wasted your purchase Lindens but, more important, you would have wasted some three months of breeding time.


((Incidentally, as stated above, dominant traits can never hide behind recessive traits. Also, the sex of a parent does not have any bearing on which trait is passed or hidden.))

Ty so much for that clear explanation, now this is something i easily understand and i have been understanding since day one, i would never try to sell something to someone unless i can prove it exists in the pedigree somehow, i think where the main confusion came from someone assuming i didn't know this cause i used the word hide and i didn't have my pedigree boards for the cat proving its genetics yet, so its possible neither of us were wrong , just confused about each other,

I dont know if anyone understands astrology but i have a fallen mercury, i think what the main problem here is not my understanding of the knowledge or anyone elses who trys to point out my mistake but rather knowing how to communicate and not make assumptions about the other and maybe try not to police them too harshly at the bidboards, but instead figure out their motivatine and what kind of breeder they r first before approaching them, sure i'm new at this but has anyone noticed how successful ive been? my learning experience will difffer quite greatly cause im' new compared to someone whos been doing this for years, so what i nbeed to learn is how to market the kittys to ppl that i get from my snowshoe creams that aren't snowshoe creams or my bengal blacks that don't come out bengal blacks from a bengal black, as about 40-50 % of my kittys i pull r the rare fur when i breed them from my line of kittys, so like half of them i have to sell..how do i label such kittys, surely theres an expert marketer/breeder with experience marketing such kittys which i know r still even kind of rare to have.

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(03-20-2014 02:20 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 06:31 PM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  k so i cheked with one of my teachers and she xplained things quite clearly to me what i had originally thought was correct after all, "Hidden" means the recessive trait that is "NOT Shown" , but every now and then dominant traits can be hidden but it's rare... this is something i have understood pretty much from day one, but someone told me something today that kinda confused me from this by saying to me it could only be the father who gives a hidden trait meaning females don't pass down any hidden traits, now im sure the confusion is solely my fault in this instance with trying to understand what they were trying to say. if anyone wants to help un-confuse me further or re-confuse me more i say go for it im gracious for any feedback whatsoever or just simple thoughts on the matter!

It would be nice to know what other newbies have experienced with this topic.

Woah there !
Whoever told you that occasionally , now and then dominant traits can be hidden behind a recessive needs to take classes themselves. This is probably the result of misreading a pedigree or the trait charts. I'd stick my neck out and say this just can't happen as the server "knows" the dominance order and cannot provide otherwise.

Also you can totally forget about the father being the only one to pass hidden traits. Absolutely untrue, both genders have equal chances of passing their hidden traits.

I just hope that the person(s) who provided you with these informations aren't giving breeding classes.
So, unless you misunderstood what they were explaining then i strongly suggest that you discreetly find another mentor.

Anyhow good luck with all your projects and i'm sure that you'll soon have it all worked out

this is another fact that probably gets misconstrued due to terminology alone.
like hasn't anyone ever bred a couple black russians together and all they have in their peds r black russians, you put em together and out comes a bengal or a siames or a tabby, right not cause its a hidden dominant, its cause its just something that was in the ped somewhere far far away that the ole shuffling of cards trick that genetics does decided to play that card. anyone got a better way of explaining why this is an urban myth with a sort of truth to it but yes absolutely the servers know best buts still arent they able to trick us and make it seem like they r divying from the protocol from time to time? anyone input? am i right or am i sorely wrong? cause...my experience tells a story...but it doesnt mean yours will match 100%, but it doesnt neccasarily mean im wrong or your wrong, i think terms of grey where its possible for both parties to be sorta right or sorta wrong, as things r not always black & white, sum things r yes... but theres almost always shades of grey if you look closely enuf, and perhaps its only an illusion cause of it it all getting lost in translation

---

(03-20-2014 04:39 AM)JuniperJazz Resident Wrote:  I just want to say a BIG thank you to you Maxwell, not only for this explanation but also for the wonderful webpage you made regarding the back breeding technique you used in your vampire kitty project. I've learned so much from your webpage that I probably would have otherwise spent months trying to work out for myself.

It's people like you, Tad with his build-a-kitty page, Anna with her beautifully precise explanations and others (too many to mention) whom help those of us new to breeding find our way through some of those initial breeding mysteries . Thank you all so much.

Sorry for cutting in on your thread Hathor, but I just felt I had to give kudos where it's due.

i honestly can't remeber if i saw that page or not, it definitely rings a bell im gonna go look for it and read it for sure, i love to read things over and over and over aghin, im just a info nerd like that, but i have to say from my own experience that back crossing the ONLY way to go when trying to expand the traits you want in your cattery i can comfortably say about up to 60% of the time overall i get exactly what i want or am trying to breed for and probably all thanx to back breeding. teh magic will usually happen after the second try, siblings or parents both work great as long as yu ehkhem keep it all in the family your results will be fantastic !

---

(03-20-2014 05:31 AM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 02:49 AM)Maxwell Grantly Wrote:  I am sorry to hear that there is confusion in the concept of “hidden” traits. A picture is worth a thousand words and so I hope that this picture may help you to understand.

((To make things easier, just focus on the eye colour of the three Foxie-Auburn kitties.))



Please look at the eye colour of Holly. She has Canary eyes and, when you look at her parents, it is clear that the gene came from her father, Oak. Canary is more dominant than Rainbow Prism and so you can be 100% certain that her mother, Ash, did not contain this gene.

Therefore, the next question to ask is this: Can we deduce what Holly’s recessive gene is? The answer is categorically, “No.” Some inexperienced breeders may place Holly out to sale and promote her sale by claiming that she has hidden “Rainbow Prism” genes from her mother, Ash.

Indeed, if you were to check the pedigree of Holly, you could even be mistaken for believing this, as the pedigree chart of Holly does actually verify that her mother, Ash, bears Rainbow Prism eyes.

The problem with all this is that you cannot be sure that Ash is pure in her Rainbow Prism eye gene. There is a chance that there is a second (more recessive) gene hidden beneath her Rainbow Prism eyes; a gene that has not yet shown itself. Even if the mother Ash came from a long line of parents and grandparents, all bearing Rainbow Prism eyes, it is not unknown for a gene to be masked and laying hidden beneath.

Therefore, when a breeder sells a box and claims that the hidden gene for a specific trait is “X” ~ it is often misleading. It would only be after many months of breeding (if you manage to pull the hidden gene out) that you can verify this. Just imagine your frustration if you were to buy a box under the false hope that it contained the gene that you wanted, as a hidden gene, only to discover two or three months later that you were duped. You would have wasted your purchase Lindens but, more important, you would have wasted some three months of breeding time.


((Incidentally, as stated above, dominant traits can never hide behind recessive traits. Also, the sex of a parent does not have any bearing on which trait is passed or hidden.))

Ty so much for that clear explanation, now this is something i easily understand and i have been understanding since day one, i would never try to sell something to someone unless i can prove it exists in the pedigree somehow, i think where the main confusion came from someone assuming i didn't know this cause i used the word hide and i didn't have my pedigree boards for the cat proving its genetics yet, so its possible neither of us were wrong , just confused about each other,

I dont know if anyone understands astrology but i have a fallen mercury, i think what the main problem here is not my understanding of the knowledge or anyone elses who trys to point out my mistake but rather knowing how to communicate and not make assumptions about the other and maybe try not to police them too harshly at the bidboards, but instead figure out their motivatine and what kind of breeder they r first before approaching them, sure i'm new at this but has anyone noticed how successful ive been? my learning experience will difffer quite greatly cause im' new compared to someone whos been doing this for years, so what i nbeed to learn is how to market the kittys to ppl that i get from my snowshoe creams that aren't snowshoe creams or my bengal blacks that don't come out bengal blacks from a bengal black, as about 40-50 % of my kittys i pull r the rare fur when i breed them from my line of kittys, so like half of them i have to sell..how do i label such kittys, surely theres an expert marketer/breeder with experience marketing such kittys which i know r still even kind of rare to have.

---

(03-20-2014 02:20 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 06:31 PM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  k so i cheked with one of my teachers and she xplained things quite clearly to me what i had originally thought was correct after all, "Hidden" means the recessive trait that is "NOT Shown" , but every now and then dominant traits can be hidden but it's rare... this is something i have understood pretty much from day one, but someone told me something today that kinda confused me from this by saying to me it could only be the father who gives a hidden trait meaning females don't pass down any hidden traits, now im sure the confusion is solely my fault in this instance with trying to understand what they were trying to say. if anyone wants to help un-confuse me further or re-confuse me more i say go for it im gracious for any feedback whatsoever or just simple thoughts on the matter!

It would be nice to know what other newbies have experienced with this topic.

Woah there !
Whoever told you that occasionally , now and then dominant traits can be hidden behind a recessive needs to take classes themselves. This is probably the result of misreading a pedigree or the trait charts. I'd stick my neck out and say this just can't happen as the server "knows" the dominance order and cannot provide otherwise.

Also you can totally forget about the father being the only one to pass hidden traits. Absolutely untrue, both genders have equal chances of passing their hidden traits.

I just hope that the person(s) who provided you with these informations aren't giving breeding classes.
So, unless you misunderstood what they were explaining then i strongly suggest that you discreetly find another mentor.

Anyhow good luck with all your projects and i'm sure that you'll soon have it all worked out

this is another fact that probably gets misconstrued due to terminology alone.
like hasn't anyone ever bred a couple black russians together and all they have in their peds r black russians, you put em together and out comes a bengal or a siames or a tabby, right not cause its a hidden dominant, its cause its just something that was in the ped somewhere far far away that the ole shuffling of cards trick that genetics does decided to play that card. anyone got a better way of explaining why this is an urban myth with a sort of truth to it but yes absolutely the servers know best buts still arent they able to trick us and make it seem like they r divying from the protocol from time to time? anyone input? am i right or am i sorely wrong? cause...my experience tells a story...but it doesnt mean yours will match 100%, but it doesnt neccasarily mean im wrong or your wrong, i think terms of grey where its possible for both parties to be sorta right or sorta wrong, as things r not always black & white, sum things r yes... but theres almost always shades of grey if you look closely enuf, and perhaps its only an illusion cause of it it all getting lost in translation

---

(03-20-2014 04:39 AM)JuniperJazz Resident Wrote:  I just want to say a BIG thank you to you Maxwell, not only for this explanation but also for the wonderful webpage you made regarding the back breeding technique you used in your vampire kitty project. I've learned so much from your webpage that I probably would have otherwise spent months trying to work out for myself.

It's people like you, Tad with his build-a-kitty page, Anna with her beautifully precise explanations and others (too many to mention) whom help those of us new to breeding find our way through some of those initial breeding mysteries . Thank you all so much.

Sorry for cutting in on your thread Hathor, but I just felt I had to give kudos where it's due.

i honestly can't remeber if i saw that page or not, it definitely rings a bell im gonna go look for it and read it for sure, i love to read things over and over and over aghin, im just a info nerd like that, but i have to say from my own experience that back crossing the ONLY way to go when trying to expand the traits you want in your cattery i can comfortably say about up to 60% of the time overall i get exactly what i want or am trying to breed for and probably all thanx to back breeding. teh magic will usually happen after the second try, siblings or parents both work great as long as yu ehkhem keep it all in the family your results will be fantastic !

Being dyslexic i have to reread evreything over and over again anyways so i guess i just got uses to it and now i thinks its sorta fun, i reread your explanation just now and i have one question about this statement in particular
"The problem with all this is that you cannot be sure that Ash is pure in her Rainbow Prism eye gene. There is a chance that there is a second (more recessive) gene hidden beneath her Rainbow Prism eyes; a gene that has not yet shown itself. Even if the mother Ash came from a long line of parents and grandparents, all bearing Rainbow Prism eyes, it is not unknown for a gene to be masked and laying hidden beneath."

aha!! this is what im getting at this is the nugget of info thats stands out for me which i hope verifies this next statement being true : hidden is referring to a trait thats from pure genetic that can be passed down like 9 outta 10 times or something to that effect, so to be sure its a "hidden" trait one has to get it from a pure and true source in peds, otherwise its up in the air and your guess is as good as mine right? or wrong..? i'm sure its easy to see how one can confuse this info if what you were saying in this next statement is indeed true:

"Also you can totally forget about the father being the only one to pass hidden traits. Absolutely untrue, both genders have equal chances of passing their hidden traits."

---

(03-20-2014 05:31 AM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 02:49 AM)Maxwell Grantly Wrote:  I am sorry to hear that there is confusion in the concept of “hidden” traits. A picture is worth a thousand words and so I hope that this picture may help you to understand.

((To make things easier, just focus on the eye colour of the three Foxie-Auburn kitties.))



Please look at the eye colour of Holly. She has Canary eyes and, when you look at her parents, it is clear that the gene came from her father, Oak. Canary is more dominant than Rainbow Prism and so you can be 100% certain that her mother, Ash, did not contain this gene.

Therefore, the next question to ask is this: Can we deduce what Holly’s recessive gene is? The answer is categorically, “No.” Some inexperienced breeders may place Holly out to sale and promote her sale by claiming that she has hidden “Rainbow Prism” genes from her mother, Ash.

Indeed, if you were to check the pedigree of Holly, you could even be mistaken for believing this, as the pedigree chart of Holly does actually verify that her mother, Ash, bears Rainbow Prism eyes.

The problem with all this is that you cannot be sure that Ash is pure in her Rainbow Prism eye gene. There is a chance that there is a second (more recessive) gene hidden beneath her Rainbow Prism eyes; a gene that has not yet shown itself. Even if the mother Ash came from a long line of parents and grandparents, all bearing Rainbow Prism eyes, it is not unknown for a gene to be masked and laying hidden beneath.

Therefore, when a breeder sells a box and claims that the hidden gene for a specific trait is “X” ~ it is often misleading. It would only be after many months of breeding (if you manage to pull the hidden gene out) that you can verify this. Just imagine your frustration if you were to buy a box under the false hope that it contained the gene that you wanted, as a hidden gene, only to discover two or three months later that you were duped. You would have wasted your purchase Lindens but, more important, you would have wasted some three months of breeding time.


((Incidentally, as stated above, dominant traits can never hide behind recessive traits. Also, the sex of a parent does not have any bearing on which trait is passed or hidden.))

Ty so much for that clear explanation, now this is something i easily understand and i have been understanding since day one, i would never try to sell something to someone unless i can prove it exists in the pedigree somehow, i think where the main confusion came from someone assuming i didn't know this cause i used the word hide and i didn't have my pedigree boards for the cat proving its genetics yet, so its possible neither of us were wrong , just confused about each other,

I dont know if anyone understands astrology but i have a fallen mercury, i think what the main problem here is not my understanding of the knowledge or anyone elses who trys to point out my mistake but rather knowing how to communicate and not make assumptions about the other and maybe try not to police them too harshly at the bidboards, but instead figure out their motivatine and what kind of breeder they r first before approaching them, sure i'm new at this but has anyone noticed how successful ive been? my learning experience will difffer quite greatly cause im' new compared to someone whos been doing this for years, so what i nbeed to learn is how to market the kittys to ppl that i get from my snowshoe creams that aren't snowshoe creams or my bengal blacks that don't come out bengal blacks from a bengal black, as about 40-50 % of my kittys i pull r the rare fur when i breed them from my line of kittys, so like half of them i have to sell..how do i label such kittys, surely theres an expert marketer/breeder with experience marketing such kittys which i know r still even kind of rare to have.

---

(03-20-2014 02:20 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 06:31 PM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  k so i cheked with one of my teachers and she xplained things quite clearly to me what i had originally thought was correct after all, "Hidden" means the recessive trait that is "NOT Shown" , but every now and then dominant traits can be hidden but it's rare... this is something i have understood pretty much from day one, but someone told me something today that kinda confused me from this by saying to me it could only be the father who gives a hidden trait meaning females don't pass down any hidden traits, now im sure the confusion is solely my fault in this instance with trying to understand what they were trying to say. if anyone wants to help un-confuse me further or re-confuse me more i say go for it im gracious for any feedback whatsoever or just simple thoughts on the matter!

It would be nice to know what other newbies have experienced with this topic.

Woah there !
Whoever told you that occasionally , now and then dominant traits can be hidden behind a recessive needs to take classes themselves. This is probably the result of misreading a pedigree or the trait charts. I'd stick my neck out and say this just can't happen as the server "knows" the dominance order and cannot provide otherwise.

Also you can totally forget about the father being the only one to pass hidden traits. Absolutely untrue, both genders have equal chances of passing their hidden traits.

I just hope that the person(s) who provided you with these informations aren't giving breeding classes.
So, unless you misunderstood what they were explaining then i strongly suggest that you discreetly find another mentor.

Anyhow good luck with all your projects and i'm sure that you'll soon have it all worked out

this is another fact that probably gets misconstrued due to terminology alone.
like hasn't anyone ever bred a couple black russians together and all they have in their peds r black russians, you put em together and out comes a bengal or a siames or a tabby, right not cause its a hidden dominant, its cause its just something that was in the ped somewhere far far away that the ole shuffling of cards trick that genetics does decided to play that card. anyone got a better way of explaining why this is an urban myth with a sort of truth to it but yes absolutely the servers know best buts still arent they able to trick us and make it seem like they r divying from the protocol from time to time? anyone input? am i right or am i sorely wrong? cause...my experience tells a story...but it doesnt mean yours will match 100%, but it doesnt neccasarily mean im wrong or your wrong, i think terms of grey where its possible for both parties to be sorta right or sorta wrong, as things r not always black & white, sum things r yes... but theres almost always shades of grey if you look closely enuf, and perhaps its only an illusion cause of it it all getting lost in translation

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(03-20-2014 04:39 AM)JuniperJazz Resident Wrote:  I just want to say a BIG thank you to you Maxwell, not only for this explanation but also for the wonderful webpage you made regarding the back breeding technique you used in your vampire kitty project. I've learned so much from your webpage that I probably would have otherwise spent months trying to work out for myself.

It's people like you, Tad with his build-a-kitty page, Anna with her beautifully precise explanations and others (too many to mention) whom help those of us new to breeding find our way through some of those initial breeding mysteries . Thank you all so much.

Sorry for cutting in on your thread Hathor, but I just felt I had to give kudos where it's due.

i honestly can't remeber if i saw that page or not, it definitely rings a bell im gonna go look for it and read it for sure, i love to read things over and over and over aghin, im just a info nerd like that, but i have to say from my own experience that back crossing the ONLY way to go when trying to expand the traits you want in your cattery i can comfortably say about up to 60% of the time overall i get exactly what i want or am trying to breed for and probably all thanx to back breeding. teh magic will usually happen after the second try, siblings or parents both work great as long as yu ehkhem keep it all in the family your results will be fantastic !

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(03-20-2014 05:31 AM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 02:49 AM)Maxwell Grantly Wrote:  I am sorry to hear that there is confusion in the concept of “hidden” traits. A picture is worth a thousand words and so I hope that this picture may help you to understand.

((To make things easier, just focus on the eye colour of the three Foxie-Auburn kitties.))



Please look at the eye colour of Holly. She has Canary eyes and, when you look at her parents, it is clear that the gene came from her father, Oak. Canary is more dominant than Rainbow Prism and so you can be 100% certain that her mother, Ash, did not contain this gene.

Therefore, the next question to ask is this: Can we deduce what Holly’s recessive gene is? The answer is categorically, “No.” Some inexperienced breeders may place Holly out to sale and promote her sale by claiming that she has hidden “Rainbow Prism” genes from her mother, Ash.

Indeed, if you were to check the pedigree of Holly, you could even be mistaken for believing this, as the pedigree chart of Holly does actually verify that her mother, Ash, bears Rainbow Prism eyes.

The problem with all this is that you cannot be sure that Ash is pure in her Rainbow Prism eye gene. There is a chance that there is a second (more recessive) gene hidden beneath her Rainbow Prism eyes; a gene that has not yet shown itself. Even if the mother Ash came from a long line of parents and grandparents, all bearing Rainbow Prism eyes, it is not unknown for a gene to be masked and laying hidden beneath.

Therefore, when a breeder sells a box and claims that the hidden gene for a specific trait is “X” ~ it is often misleading. It would only be after many months of breeding (if you manage to pull the hidden gene out) that you can verify this. Just imagine your frustration if you were to buy a box under the false hope that it contained the gene that you wanted, as a hidden gene, only to discover two or three months later that you were duped. You would have wasted your purchase Lindens but, more important, you would have wasted some three months of breeding time.


((Incidentally, as stated above, dominant traits can never hide behind recessive traits. Also, the sex of a parent does not have any bearing on which trait is passed or hidden.))

Ty so much for that clear explanation, now this is something i easily understand and i have been understanding since day one, i would never try to sell something to someone unless i can prove it exists in the pedigree somehow, i think where the main confusion came from someone assuming i didn't know this cause i used the word hide and i didn't have my pedigree boards for the cat proving its genetics yet, so its possible neither of us were wrong , just confused about each other,

I dont know if anyone understands astrology but i have a fallen mercury, i think what the main problem here is not my understanding of the knowledge or anyone elses who trys to point out my mistake but rather knowing how to communicate and not make assumptions about the other and maybe try not to police them too harshly at the bidboards, but instead figure out their motivatine and what kind of breeder they r first before approaching them, sure i'm new at this but has anyone noticed how successful ive been? my learning experience will difffer quite greatly cause im' new compared to someone whos been doing this for years, so what i nbeed to learn is how to market the kittys to ppl that i get from my snowshoe creams that aren't snowshoe creams or my bengal blacks that don't come out bengal blacks from a bengal black, as about 40-50 % of my kittys i pull r the rare fur when i breed them from my line of kittys, so like half of them i have to sell..how do i label such kittys, surely theres an expert marketer/breeder with experience marketing such kittys which i know r still even kind of rare to have.

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(03-20-2014 02:20 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 06:31 PM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  k so i cheked with one of my teachers and she xplained things quite clearly to me what i had originally thought was correct after all, "Hidden" means the recessive trait that is "NOT Shown" , but every now and then dominant traits can be hidden but it's rare... this is something i have understood pretty much from day one, but someone told me something today that kinda confused me from this by saying to me it could only be the father who gives a hidden trait meaning females don't pass down any hidden traits, now im sure the confusion is solely my fault in this instance with trying to understand what they were trying to say. if anyone wants to help un-confuse me further or re-confuse me more i say go for it im gracious for any feedback whatsoever or just simple thoughts on the matter!

It would be nice to know what other newbies have experienced with this topic.

Woah there !
Whoever told you that occasionally , now and then dominant traits can be hidden behind a recessive needs to take classes themselves. This is probably the result of misreading a pedigree or the trait charts. I'd stick my neck out and say this just can't happen as the server "knows" the dominance order and cannot provide otherwise.

Also you can totally forget about the father being the only one to pass hidden traits. Absolutely untrue, both genders have equal chances of passing their hidden traits.

I just hope that the person(s) who provided you with these informations aren't giving breeding classes.
So, unless you misunderstood what they were explaining then i strongly suggest that you discreetly find another mentor.

Anyhow good luck with all your projects and i'm sure that you'll soon have it all worked out

this is another fact that probably gets misconstrued due to terminology alone.
like hasn't anyone ever bred a couple black russians together and all they have in their peds r black russians, you put em together and out comes a bengal or a siames or a tabby, right not cause its a hidden dominant, its cause its just something that was in the ped somewhere far far away that the ole shuffling of cards trick that genetics does decided to play that card. anyone got a better way of explaining why this is an urban myth with a sort of truth to it but yes absolutely the servers know best buts still arent they able to trick us and make it seem like they r divying from the protocol from time to time? anyone input? am i right or am i sorely wrong? cause...my experience tells a story...but it doesnt mean yours will match 100%, but it doesnt neccasarily mean im wrong or your wrong, i think terms of grey where its possible for both parties to be sorta right or sorta wrong, as things r not always black & white, sum things r yes... but theres almost always shades of grey if you look closely enuf, and perhaps its only an illusion cause of it it all getting lost in translation

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(03-20-2014 04:39 AM)JuniperJazz Resident Wrote:  I just want to say a BIG thank you to you Maxwell, not only for this explanation but also for the wonderful webpage you made regarding the back breeding technique you used in your vampire kitty project. I've learned so much from your webpage that I probably would have otherwise spent months trying to work out for myself.

It's people like you, Tad with his build-a-kitty page, Anna with her beautifully precise explanations and others (too many to mention) whom help those of us new to breeding find our way through some of those initial breeding mysteries . Thank you all so much.

Sorry for cutting in on your thread Hathor, but I just felt I had to give kudos where it's due.

i honestly can't remeber if i saw that page or not, it definitely rings a bell im gonna go look for it and read it for sure, i love to read things over and over and over aghin, im just a info nerd like that, but i have to say from my own experience that back crossing the ONLY way to go when trying to expand the traits you want in your cattery i can comfortably say about up to 60% of the time overall i get exactly what i want or am trying to breed for and probably all thanx to back breeding. teh magic will usually happen after the second try, siblings or parents both work great as long as yu ehkhem keep it all in the family your results will be fantastic !

Being dyslexic i have to reread evreything over and over again anyways so i guess i just got uses to it and now i thinks its sorta fun, i reread your explanation just now and i have one question about this statement in particular
"The problem with all this is that you cannot be sure that Ash is pure in her Rainbow Prism eye gene. There is a chance that there is a second (more recessive) gene hidden beneath her Rainbow Prism eyes; a gene that has not yet shown itself. Even if the mother Ash came from a long line of parents and grandparents, all bearing Rainbow Prism eyes, it is not unknown for a gene to be masked and laying hidden beneath."

aha!! this is what im getting at this is the nugget of info thats stands out for me which i hope verifies this next statement being true : hidden is referring to a trait thats from pure genetic that can be passed down like 9 outta 10 times or something to that effect, so to be sure its a "hidden" trait one has to get it from a pure and true source in peds, otherwise its up in the air and your guess is as good as mine right? or wrong..? i'm sure its easy to see how one can confuse this info if what you were saying in this next statement is indeed true:

"Also you can totally forget about the father being the only one to pass hidden traits. Absolutely untrue, both genders have equal chances of passing their hidden traits."

so you get the gist of what i mean by why its easy to confuse the terminology about the word hide with traits from both genders be abled to pass, meaning if i think your gonna get a certain thing from a certain cat its only from my own experience of it from all the backcrossing i do it happens quite often i get what i want in the peds, wheras somone else less experienced would say ash hid rainbow meanin she will somehow give rainbow by her own means? but this is not what i mean when im referring to a cat like this im saying this cat has a mother with rainbow eyes she will be more likely to give rainbow eyes when you pair her with another cat with rainbow eyes showing and the more in the ped obiously the better, now please tell me how to fit that on the kittycats box label which is limited to haw many characters i can use to describe it, i found as a newbie the toughest thing is understanding everyone elses abbreveations, surly there is a clearcut way to say this cat breeds good rainbow prism eyes if you know what you are doing, but yeah if you but it soley for its rainbow eyes your gonna be dissapointed most likely, and btw my pairings with these more exspensive rare traits would never even have eyes like canary, i only keep the best kinds of traits that r the most recessive when breeding these rare traist ofcourse who wouldnt, so these cats of mine also have things like ody bellini , jade, and all the other just as rare eyes, im not silly enuf to think anyone would be silly enough to think a pair of dominant as heck canary eyes r gonna be good for you, so theres no pretending with me, i wouldnt try to sell it as a cat to pair like that if i didn't know your were gonna have the same luck as I did if you know what to do like i did. I didnt start out with pure pairs i started out with 1 pure kitty of each rare fur that was available i went out and paid for them, this is the way to do it, i took these kittys and bred them with the next most recessive fur like foxie salt & pepper, or ocicat ebony silvers or balinese cream lynx or pandies, these all gave me great results the best was obiously foxie salt and pepper now from 1 came many i now have plenty of these rare furs and now im breeding them together mostly to get purer pairs of them.

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so all my life i've been trying to get ppl to better understand me its the one thing ive always wanted the most from others besides their basic kindness and respect is understanding. the problem is im a very intelligent and complex person, and not easy to understand me at all, to the point where i feel quite stupid around everyone else. ( did i mention fallen mercury ?) i really appreciate everyone's patience and understanding, as little as im used to getting, i will take what i can get and will greatly honor and appreciate it.

[Hathor Xaris]

Thank you maxwell and anna so much for responding to my thread you r definitely giving me the reassurance i need and yes it's wonderful ppl likke yourselves in this amazing community which have saved me oh so much time, words cannot express my grattitude to you all!!, even though i know sometimes i can be ...um quite aries lol actually my rl birthday is yes the first day of spring here tomorrow or the next day or two, so my sun is on the cusp actually of aries and pisces which might help explain to those familiar with sun signs why im might seem spicy but still sweet. i mean no harm and hope i don't offend anyone if i ever do i hope u can forgive me, im just very volitile and flammatory from time to time especially ion the face of something as frustrating as communication my pitfall. pls dont wish me a happy birthday caus ei do it aborigional style and celebrate the whole month as i dont really keep track of the day of the month like them...hm hints of dry sarcasm don't really go over well in text but i got lots lots of dry wit to go around anyways. but anyways wish me a happy solstice instead, as i wish all the same to you! ( btw I've been studying astrology since i was 10 years of age, when i actually get around to finishing my sim here soon i will be offering a chart service in a cave somewhere there if anyones interested in that sort of thing you will have to come check me out later. ) smiles * hugs * more smiles and hugs * xoxoxo