Please Be Carefull !!

[dakillakm Resident]

Yes, thanks for reviving this thread! It's an issue that always seems to pop up whether deliberate or mistakes. Noc hit on my biggest peeve: that kitty is hiding Trait 1 AND Trait 2. Seeing this type of labeling never fails to make me yell at my computer screen.

I don't really sell all that many kitties but when I do I name them with the most likely hidden when I can or if there is a chance of something I will usually add it with something like "Jade in BG." I know this can get confusing, but when I was new, wandering around sims, seeing the (accurate) names on kitties and then looking through their pedis really helped me understand the breeding system. This is another reason the auctioneers knowledge is so important; I got a really good working grasp of the possibilities of a kitty by thoroughly perving pedigrees by listening to good auctioneers that would point out EXACTLY why something could be hidden and where you could see it. I've been consumed by school work the last few months and have rarely had a chance to go to auctions but hopefully if someone is willing to take the time to do an auction they understand they also have to take the time to be absolutely as knowledgeable as possible, for their customer's good and for their own success frankly.

I rarely do it but I want to give a thank you to those in the community who are willing to message people who appear to have made a mistake in their naming or advertising. If done in a polite and well communicated manner I think this can 1) provide better education and 2) serve as a peer based system of check and balances for the secondary market.

And a double "yay" for those of you who actively hold classes, create documents, maintain databases, etc., etc., all for the good of our little community! Without these things there would probably be a lot more misunderstanding/misadvertising

[Angelfa Watkins]

Thank you for reviving this thread! I've also seen some kitties misnamed with "Hides whatever" when "whatever" was actually dominant to the shown trait... I have to admit that I didn't IM the seller, but I will if I see this again in the future!

I am not the most experienced breeder, but I've got a pretty good grasp of breeding principles and dominance of traits, so I am also open to IMs if anyone needs help with that! Just don't get offended if I don't answer, I get disconnected very often and sometimes, IMs get lost! If that happens, please just re-send your IM!

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

I agree this issue crops up usually with a big collection kitty release which draws in lots of new breeders. And, I've seen a lot of people trying to clear up misinformation in KC chat, as well as here in forums, but we can't be everywhere all the time. I wish there was a better way of getting the correct info into the hands that need it. I've also seen that some working under mistaken assumptions are pretty sure they are right, so trying to help there really doesn't do much good. But that is why I started the "New Breeder Q&A" notecards which I drop on folks that are new and asking questions in KC chat lol. I've had a few IM me and say it was very helpful, others may simply discard it, but at least I try to get a reference into their hands with links to the forums, trait charts, the KC online manual, and various other info.

I think part of the confusion there is a misunderstanding betweeen the concepts of "can hide" and "is recessive enough to let *insert trait* show". For example, someone breeding a cat with fussy tail to a cat with curious tail, getting stubby and thinking that must mean the fussy tail "hid" stubby, not understanding how recessiveness works. Which can get confusing if say they had a pedigree for the cat that didn't show stubby at all on the side it must have come from, and perhaps on the fussy side one of the cats did show stubby. That is where the trait charts come in...they really go hand in hand with pedigrees. If you open a cat's pedi, and compare it to the trait charts, you can learn A LOT all on your own.

If you are a new breeder and are reading all this, the one thing I really hope to stress is this; Breeding should be FUN. We were all confused at first about some things, even now I sometimes look at a box my cats made and think "where did THAT come from?" and off I go digging through pedigrees and the trait chart! So don't let stressing over pedigrees and charts take the sheer fun away from you, but balance that with some care and research if you decide to sell some of your cats. And please don't be afraid to ask questions in chat or IM any of the people that have stated in this thread they'd be happy to help. None of this is meant to be judgemental, only to help dispell some myths that are not helping anyone. And use caution if you choose to buy as well, if you feel unsure that you're actually going to get what is being advertised, ask someone to help you look over the pedigree. And may the FLUFF be with you!

[Liriel Garnet]

Re naming boxes: I label all my boxes with shown, hidden, and potential hidden via my own 'code' LOL ... This is one from this morning, for example:

9T - BaliChoccy/MidSkPrf/Twink/BooT/RndE/WhMyW - hid OciES,OdyRn+,unkT,PSF,Blk+W,??PlshW

it's hiding the following for sure: Oci Ebony/Silver, Ody Rainbow or better (all i know about the 'or better' is that it's at least Ody Kaleidoscope, parents first breeding), an unknown tail to let the BooBoo out (I didn't know mom had anything beyond frisky), Pointed Soft Fold ears, Black 'or better' whiskers. It's 50/50 to hide plush whiskers as dad hides them.

I use this for my OWN purposes, it allows me to find boxes quickly in inventory. It does however provide a handy guide for anyone looking at my boxes.

Re: Auctioneers knowing their stuff.. OMG YES!!! This is absolutely critical. Everyone is human and makes mistakes, but a good auctioneer will know their stuff about each of the cats for sale and will have tried their best to know what is potentially hiding in order to best sell the cats. If a mistake is made, a good auctioneer is quick to acknowledge and correct their mistakes. This is why, as a patron, if you think something *isn't* right about a claim on a cat, you should ALWAYS speak up and ask for an explanation.

My current pet peeve: People who claim that a cat definitely hides something when it's only a chance. Just because a full sibling got something, doesn't mean that the parents passed it to the baby, unless at least one SHOWS it. For example, even if a full sibling of and offspring of two Apple-eyed parents shows Ody Bellini (meaning both hide it), there is NO guarantee that a box from that same pair showing Apple hides the Ody Bellini. Both parents could have passed their Apple eye, in which case it's pure Apple, nothing else hiding.

[Piper Rowley]

Quite honestly, this thread had made me go rename all my boxes in my shops to say nothing about hiding anything. I name some boxes with what they could be hiding but I don't specify *could*. Example:

? 3T:: Hiding StrawBellini/Twinkly/Ody1/PerfPlushWhisk

Fur: Siamese - Blue
Eyes: Passion (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: White (Shape: Guitar)
Size: Normal

Pedigree: http://kittycats.biz/p.php?e24a5a5b-983690-51282
?????????????????????????????
MOM: Rose
Fur: Siamese - Blue
Eyes: Changing Leaf (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Odyssey No. 1
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Plush)

DAD: Derrick
Fur: Russian - Black
Eyes: Passion (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: White (Shape: Guitar)

Baby is showing Dad's eye, Mom's hidden is Strawberry Bellini. Dad has no shade but Mom has Twinkle in the BG. Baby has gen ears like Dad but Mom has Ody 1 ears. Mom has Plush Whiskers and Dad/Baby have the same. Does this mean I'm wrong? The kitty could be hiding Changing Leaf as it is more dom than the Strawberry Bellini but I picked to put that there cause if someone has a S.Bellini and wants to pair it with that kitty above, there's a chance it will come out. I try to go back to the grandparents of the Mom/Dad to see what they have or what they could have passed before I name my boxes. If it's a kitty I bought and then bred with another, I honestly think pedigrees should be automatically enabled. That way, if I want to look at one of the kitties I bought great-grandpa, I can to determine what *might* be there. It would be easier. I have encountered people who refused to enable those pedigrees. They flat out told me "No". I want to see what a kitties great-grandparent has, what it passed to the kitty or what it *could* have passed.

I'm not trying to mislead anyone here. I look at back pedigrees (if I can) and the dom/rec order. I put what they are hiding cause they are potentially hiding it. When I am looking around at boxes and I see the word "Hiding" I don't instantaneously think "OMG! If I pair this with this then I'll get that" and people need to realize this. There's the potential for it and I don't always go back to the great-grandparents because a lot of people don't enable pedigrees on their kitties so it's hard to determine sometimes. I try to make sure ALL my kitties have them enabled. If someone wants to look, I have no problem with them looking. If they see something wrong, please tell me. I'm a new breeder and I WILL make mistakes but that doesn't mean I'm trying to bamboozle a noobie. I'm just stating what *could* be there.

With that book written (lol), if anyone wants to take the time to help me and look through my boxes so I'm not "misleading" anyone...by all means, please, but for now, I will be renaming my boxes to not show hiding anymore or at least say "in BG". The kitty above is now named: ? 3T:: StrawBellini/Twinkle/Ody1/PlushWhisk in BG.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

Because Passion is dominant to Changing Leaf this kitty can either hide mom's shown eye changing leaf or if mom hides Strawbery Bellini the kitten can hide this instead sadly there is no way to know this for sure.
What this kitty's hidden eye is can only be found out by breeding it.

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

Just a few thoughts about listing hiddens. While it's true that traits shown in grandparents etc, can be lurking still, the farther away you get from a trait being shown..the more likely it is to no longer be there in my experience.

I've been seeing some boxes that say "Fussy Tail Hidden" for example, and when I look in pedi I see maybe 1 grandparent had fussy and all other cats show gen tails. The kitten, in my experience, is most likely, showing and hiding a gen tail.

Naming the box "Fussy in BG" would be accurate, but in the nuts and bolts of breeding...should be a mild consideration.

It takes some time to learn how to read and understand pedigrees and the trait charts. And when someone is new and excited about breeding, its hard to resist buying kitteh.

That's why I'd rather err on the side of caution when naming boxes. If an experienced breeder wants to take time to check pedigrees, which I do enable on boxes, they can draw their own conclusion about what is possibly hiding. So I usually don't list hidden at all, but I think it's fine if others choose to list hiddens in name, and I do see where it can be helpful.

Piper said: When I am looking around at boxes and I see the word "Hiding" I don't instantaneously think "OMG! If I pair this with this then I'll get that"

But that is what people often think, especially new breeders, and why I think it pays to use caution when naming.

[dakillakm Resident]

(04-30-2013 02:10 PM)PiperK Resident Wrote:  Quite honestly, this thread had made me go rename all my boxes in my shops to say nothing about hiding anything. I name some boxes with what they could be hiding but I don't specify *could*. Example:

? 3T:: Hiding StrawBellini/Twinkly/Ody1/PerfPlushWhisk

Fur: Siamese - Blue
Eyes: Passion (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: White (Shape: Guitar)
Size: Normal

Pedigree: http://kittycats.biz/p.php?e24a5a5b-983690-51282
?????????????????????????????
MOM: Rose
Fur: Siamese - Blue
Eyes: Changing Leaf (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Odyssey No. 1
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Plush)

DAD: Derrick
Fur: Russian - Black
Eyes: Passion (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: White (Shape: Guitar)

Baby is showing Dad's eye, Mom's hidden is Strawberry Bellini. Dad has no shade but Mom has Twinkle in the BG. Baby has gen ears like Dad but Mom has Ody 1 ears. Mom has Plush Whiskers and Dad/Baby have the same. Does this mean I'm wrong? The kitty could be hiding Changing Leaf as it is more dom than the Strawberry Bellini but I picked to put that there cause if someone has a S.Bellini and wants to pair it with that kitty above, there's a chance it will come out. I try to go back to the grandparents of the Mom/Dad to see what they have or what they could have passed before I name my boxes. If it's a kitty I bought and then bred with another, I honestly think pedigrees should be automatically enabled. That way, if I want to look at one of the kitties I bought great-grandpa, I can to determine what *might* be there. It would be easier. I have encountered people who refused to enable those pedigrees. They flat out told me "No". I want to see what a kitties great-grandparent has, what it passed to the kitty or what it *could* have passed.

Everyone definitely names their kitties different! For illustrative purposes I thought maybe I would just put what I would have named your example kitty.

"3T Hides RussBlack+/ChangingLeaf+/OdyNo.1+/PlushWsks "

For me, I like to ere on the side of caution/most likely possibitlity. I put the "+" to show that it's Changing Leaf or better (I think I picked this up from Liriel and/or some other breeders I saw listing their boxes this way). I put OdyNo.1+ because I wasn't sure if mom was maybe hiding something better or not.

I am by no means saying this is the "right" way, just "a" way. I can totally relate to your explanation and understand the difficulty trying to convey the really fun back ground while relating the facts of the matter in just a few characters! I agree with what Noc said, to me it's better to name with caution and anyone diligent enough to look at the pedigree and understand will see all the cool stuff back there.

This makes me wish there was just an option for people to see a "note" about the cat when they click on it. That way we could convey more info (along the lines of the "notes" about a kitty and it's background you give to auctioneers) with just a click!

[Kayleigh McMillan]

I agree with you Noc to prevent the enthousiastic new breeder thinks he/ she bought something which really isn't so sure I tend to let the pedigree to be the judge for the hiddens.
When I sell a cat or box I don't mention hiddens at all, most of the time, as you do.
Because from one side it can be informative to mention a cat's possible potention for those who are not used to reading pedigrees yet at the same time this same group of people will likely not be experienced enough to get that desired hidden shown.
Unless they reach out to the more experienced breeders.
Just recently my husband started to breed and I explained things about shown and hiddens, all the stuff so normal to us, and he gave me a typically blurry look while I felt I shared the basics XD
It is hard to visualize when there is no practise or experience to get the feel with it.
It just takes time and visual results for most breeders to feel this click of fully understanding something.
I'm happy therefore breeding classes are given and I hope people new to breeding kittycats will reach out to these resources.

[STRlNGS Resident]

Hi! Being a non-expert may I ask a question specifically about bali cream lynx? I have some bali cream lynx's I got to try to get furs out of starters... When that doesn't work I say "hides bali cream" because I assume my kitties that I got slightly used are not hiding that salt and pepper fur or some kind of magical undiscovered fur. So, in that one case can I reasonably say "hides bali cream"? I include an example:

http://gyazo.com/88c79774c5c6e8e277a357f4c0d3725a

I suppose theoretically I should include "or better" but I assume it's not better. Any advice would be great, thanks