New Releases Hurting the Breeders

[Sara Franco]

New eyes were discovered last night , Tapestry Organica, that makes them 11 traits and maybe more?
And not all of them look good in my opinion, I'm sure we didn't need all these so so traits, I would prefer better less ones.

[Revanna Mistwallow]

Everyone is talking about the collection cats hurting things...if you go to an auction the majority and I will say this again the majority of cats are Balinese of some kind or Foxie, there is no variety. Maybe they sell, I don't really know as I don't sell either of those furs myself, but I will say that I notice the majority of them go for no sales as most people have them. A lot of times with auctions another problem is that one cat will go very cheap and then the next panel is extremely expensive, many times they are same cats with the same hiddens. As a buyer I have seen very very few cats lately I've wanted to add to my cattery as I find them boring. Everyone breeds for super recessive things and for myself I noticed that often is easier to breed for than dominant traits.

I do think KittyCats has done a great job with some of the new traits as they aren't super recessive. This makes for breeding challenges that many of us look for. I think collection cats do hurt in a way as people will focus their money on buying them however, not everyone does that. I think too large of collections are the problem, not new releases. KittyCats needs to make money and keep us interested and they are doing what they can to help.

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(12-03-2012 08:36 AM)Sara Franco Wrote:  New eyes were discovered last night , Tapestry Organica, that makes them 11 traits and maybe more?
And not all of them look good in my opinion, I'm sure we didn't need all these so so traits, I would prefer better less ones.

Not everyone is going to like the same traits that everyone else likes. Saying one trait is better than another really isn't so cool. I personally have loved a lot of the traits that have just come out.

[Sara Franco]

(12-03-2012 08:39 AM)Revanna Mistwallow Wrote:  Not everyone is going to like the same traits that everyone else likes. Saying one trait is better than another really isn't so cool. I personally have loved a lot of the traits that have just come out.

I didn't mention specific traits and said they are better than others, the only trait I mentioned was to tell it was newly discovered.

I talked in general and said it is MY opinion, which doesn't have to be yours.
You like lots of them and that's nice but I don't, and that doesn't make me rude, but I also heard that from other breeders anyway so it is not me only.

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(12-03-2012 08:39 AM)Revanna Mistwallow Wrote:  I think too large of collections are the problem, not new releases. KittyCats needs to make money and keep us interested and they are doing what they can to help.

Yes of course they keep us interested and I do like collections and new release, I just prefer them to be limited not 10+, when they are too many I personally lose the excitement.

[Liriel Garnet]

Just tossing my 2C in here, since I've voiced this to Callie as well. I think that new traits are a great thing, and I think that the Limited Editions (LEs) are fun as well, however, in my opinion, we do *not* need LE releases of 15+ cats (like last Halloween, Easter, this Halloween) because this makes it killer on those who like to collect the LEs. I've seen more than one that used to collect them simply give up after some of the huge releases.

I see nothing wrong with releasing a number of traits in the LE releases, there's nothing that says you can't keep the number of distinct LEs low and yet still release plenty of new traits.

I *like* that the new traits are all over the dominance scale. We get upset if they're all recessive because that makes the frenzy to get them even worse because recessive has come to equal desirable in most people's minds. And I like that she has released a number of different things that appeal to different people. Personally I'm not a fan of the foxy furs, and I won't buy them. I'm not a fan of the frazzled and wavy whiskers, my favorites are plushies and the boo boo, because they look like plushies with split ends. I have balis, but I waited til well after the prices were dropping, because they didn't appeal to me all that much. The bengal tawnies, tho dominant, i'm breeding because I adore that new fur.

Bottom line, new traits are great, and I have no objection to having more of them in each release. We as buyers and breeders simply have to determine which ones we like, which ones we don't, and buy accordingly. There's no reason to buy a cat for a trait that you don't like.

What we do NOT need is more than 8 or so cats in a single LE release (and especially not rare cats that hide exclusive traits like the ambrosias). I like the idea of traits exclusive to an LE release like the Lazy Daizies, where ALL cats carried one of the eyes and the shade. (Maybe that's because I have such rotten luck with starters giving me anything new).

Last but not least, I like the 'special babies', so releasing them in pairs is really nice, as is the ability to choose male/female when they don't come in sets.

Bottom line, my hope is for smaller LE releases and a reasonable number of new traits in each release. I think if we had a *small* collectable release every 2-3 months (e.g. if we have less than 2 months between, like Halloween and Christmas, then keep the collection of distinct LEs small, say 4-6 max), it wouldn't feel excessive and wouldn't discourage those who collect, yet would still keep the market lively both for the new traits and well bred cats with older traits (you still need great cats to pair *with* your starters). If it's a longer time between collections (say four months, meaning all the last collection would be done breeding), then maybe 8-10 distinct LEs would be good.

[Tad Carlucci]

Ditto.

My thinking is a bit different. I have a feeling that it's a balancing act. The number of LEs probably has more relationship to new-player retention; while the number of traits introduced with the LE sets probably has more relationship to long-term retention and other down-stream effects (read, mainly: market values).

My impression is the size of the LE has a positive skew .. meaning smaller sets work better. But the number of new traits introduced by the set has a negative skew .. meaning larger numbers of new traits work better. Here's a graphical example of what I mean ...

[Kayleigh McMillan]

(12-03-2012 10:28 AM)Liriel Garnet Wrote:  Just tossing my 2C in here, since I've voiced this to Callie as well. I think that new traits are a great thing, and I think that the Limited Editions (LEs) are fun as well, however, in my opinion, we do *not* need LE releases of 15+ cats (like last Halloween, Easter, this Halloween) because this makes it killer on those who like to collect the LEs. I've seen more than one that used to collect them simply give up after some of the huge releases.

I see nothing wrong with releasing a number of traits in the LE releases, there's nothing that says you can't keep the number of distinct LEs low and yet still release plenty of new traits.

I *like* that the new traits are all over the dominance scale. We get upset if they're all recessive because that makes the frenzy to get them even worse because recessive has come to equal desirable in most people's minds. And I like that she has released a number of different things that appeal to different people. Personally I'm not a fan of the foxy furs, and I won't buy them. I'm not a fan of the frazzled and wavy whiskers, my favorites are plushies and the boo boo, because they look like plushies with split ends. I have balis, but I waited til well after the prices were dropping, because they didn't appeal to me all that much. The bengal tawnies, tho dominant, i'm breeding because I adore that new fur.

Bottom line, new traits are great, and I have no objection to having more of them in each release. We as buyers and breeders simply have to determine which ones we like, which ones we don't, and buy accordingly. There's no reason to buy a cat for a trait that you don't like.

What we do NOT need is more than 8 or so cats in a single LE release (and especially not rare cats that hide exclusive traits like the ambrosias). I like the idea of traits exclusive to an LE release like the Lazy Daizies, where ALL cats carried one of the eyes and the shade. (Maybe that's because I have such rotten luck with starters giving me anything new).

Last but not least, I like the 'special babies', so releasing them in pairs is really nice, as is the ability to choose male/female when they don't come in sets.

Bottom line, my hope is for smaller LE releases and a reasonable number of new traits in each release. I think if we had a *small* collectable release every 2-3 months (e.g. if we have less than 2 months between, like Halloween and Christmas, then keep the collection of distinct LEs small, say 4-6 max), it wouldn't feel excessive and wouldn't discourage those who collect, yet would still keep the market lively both for the new traits and well bred cats with older traits (you still need great cats to pair *with* your starters). If it's a longer time between collections (say four months, meaning all the last collection would be done breeding), then maybe 8-10 distinct LEs would be good.

Amen too all the above!
And the Bengal Tawny also
Gosh that fur rocks I think.
The fact it is dominant is perfect IMO.
We need those dominant furs and traits as well.
I make my Bengal Tawny pure as a point of reference so I'm very happy with the release of dominant traits.
And as for collecting I think we received the message well: the specials are not made for collectors unless the die hards want to obtain a full sim to display them all.
I thought it was fun to collect as well in the beginning but with these amounts they lost my interest.
I think Tad is right these collectables are made to lure in newcomers mainly.

[Skippy Seminario]

Here's are my thoughts are after attending some AMAZIIIIIIIIING auctions this past weekend. I as well,have just become overwhelmed with the new traits and furs etc. I just can't breed the cats fast enough to pass the traits. I am not complaining nor do I "personally" want a shorter time frame to achieve the breeding I want. But share my experiences.

Over the weekend I sold a cat that had two of the a new eye and ear plus a couple of other traits were thrown in there (gleefully so). I have been breeding for about 1 1/2 years now and I "get" how the recessive and the dominants work. But I sat there before deciding to sell it and thought, should or should I not. Should I take this see what happens with it. It's an extremely HARD decision for me to auction any kitty.

IF and that is a BIG IF the parents gift me the same blessing then alright I might take this on as a project. I just did not feel confident enough and maybe the next time I am blessed with someone so wonderful I will go to someone more skillful and say let's work on it together. But I chose to auction my kitty with the "HOPES" that a more well established and knowledgeable breeder would do something wonderful with the kitty. Perhaps I scared myself into selling the kitty, perhaps I do not have enough confidence in myself as a breeder as of yet. But I choose to do it and I can't change it now.

I love the fact that we get the new traits, I remember when I came back to breeding after a break and everyone was crying for new traits. Well we have them everyone and it's up to every breeder to keep the older traits, furs and eyes that are retired from becoming extinct (whether you keep them in your cattery in a box or mix them with the newers).

I attended several auctions this weekend and just shook my head seeing 8-9 traited older furs with epic backgrounds not sell. The auctioneers were stressing how important they were and they even gave examples of how you could take the kitty and do something with it. I for one appreciated it I snagged several older furs (some were retired fur, eyes etc). It just saddened me and I HATE no sales as much as an auctioneer does.

I just wish that more of the new people would realize this that we need all of the KittyCat. In order to get to where our goal is on a (more times then not) project that we found ourselves saying damn I don't have this older furs, traits etc. Then have to search for it. We need these older furs, traits and other retired just because of this. This is just my opinion that is on that area from my experiences. Perhaps everyone is well stocked. I know I am with certain older traits/furs but I recently had to go in search of and thankfully I found what I needed only because there are breeders out there that realize the need. Well this and they fell in love with a certain fur, or whatever reason.

So thank you to the breeders that are doing what they need to do in order to keep the traits/furs/etc from going extinct. I've always said, the new will be old one day and there will be new traits, furs etc to deal with so keep these kittys from going extinct.

I'll stop babbling now but I needed to say all of this.

[Sara Franco]

(12-03-2012 12:04 PM)Skippy Seminario Wrote:  I know I am with certain older traits/furs but I recently had to go in search of and thankfully I found what I needed only because there are breeders out there that realize the need. Well this and they fell in love with a certain fur, or whatever reason.

Oh I remember when I fell in love with the Chateau Cocoa No. 2, was really too hard to find one, and I found one by coincidence when I'm not looking.
I haven't added the eyes and traits I would like to his OS - I kept the boxes for later- yet but I never menageried him -He is retired now- as I know it wasn't easy to find him even if he got Pink Ice eyes .
Btw he passed his hidden fur which was Bengal Snow much more than his visible Chateau which drove me crazy as he left me very few Chateau Cocoa No. 2 boxes to work on later.

Some dominant furs are rare compared to Balinese, Balinese are everywhere but I love them and their cute legs though .

[Sanura Snowpaw]

I've seen new people coming to the markets looking for a pet and two of the furs I see them ask for the most are the Siamese Seal & Red Tabby because for whatever reason they LOVE that fur, be it a former pet, childhood memory ect. I have even helped a few wander the markets scouring for them and they are nearly impossible to find. Those that I have helped never really cared about anything other than the fur maybe they would want a blue or green eye but not in specifics like they did with the fur. Hell I myself got into KittyCatS after seeing the Red Tabby because of how much it looked like my childhood pet.

My point here is new and/or recessive doesn't equal better to everyone and we as a community need to learn how to value those Red Tabbies (any dominant retired trait or fur) or they will be nothing but a distant memory.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

(12-03-2012 02:12 PM)Sanura Snowpaw Wrote:  I've seen new people coming to the markets looking for a pet and two of the furs I see them ask for the most are the Siamese Seal & Red Tabby because for whatever reason they LOVE that fur, be it a former pet, childhood memory ect. I have even helped a few wander the markets scouring for them and they are nearly impossible to find. Those that I have helped never really cared about anything other than the fur maybe they would want a blue or green eye but not in specifics like they did with the fur. Hell I myself got into KittyCatS after seeing the Red Tabby because of how much it looked like my childhood pet.

My point here is new and/or recessive doesn't equal better to everyone and we as a community need to learn how to value those Red Tabbies (any dominant retired trait or fur) or they will be nothing but a distant memory.

This is so true I think certainly with KittyCatS they are really SL pets and I think we just have to breed what we really love