New Fur - Burmilla-Chocolate Caramel

[MitsuruKirijo06 Resident]

(08-27-2018 12:12 PM)Yasmina Quihoxil Wrote:  Since Gajulia's cat must be pure and I own said cat, I did an involutary ... eh.. dominance test. xD

I have pure Coals and pure Burmilla Lilacs if you or anyone wants to help test this fur farther.

[Yasmina Quihoxil]

(08-27-2018 02:37 PM)MitsuruKirijo06 Resident Wrote:  

(08-27-2018 12:12 PM)Yasmina Quihoxil Wrote:  Since Gajulia's cat must be pure and I own said cat, I did an involutary ... eh.. dominance test. xD

I have pure Coals and pure Burmilla Lilacs if you or anyone wants to help test this fur farther.

I have a hider now. I'm breeding to a Lilac now first (we know already it's dominant to the Lilac) - only need proof for the Coal anymore.

[Arwen Swordthain]

(08-29-2018 12:54 AM)Yasmina Quihoxil Wrote:  

(08-27-2018 02:37 PM)MitsuruKirijo06 Resident Wrote:  

(08-27-2018 12:12 PM)Yasmina Quihoxil Wrote:  Since Gajulia's cat must be pure and I own said cat, I did an involutary ... eh.. dominance test. xD

I have pure Coals and pure Burmilla Lilacs if you or anyone wants to help test this fur farther.

I have a hider now. I'm breeding to a Lilac now first (we know already it's dominant to the Lilac) - only need proof for the Coal anymore.

We don't actually have a conclusive proof its dominant to the Burmilla - Lilac, we know it was pulled by one that was likely pure but because its theoretically possible for Toyger - Snow to hide we do still need to see it pulled back out. So we do have a 99% sure assumption but not an actual proof whisch is why its not marked as dominant to Lilac on the charts. Of course if its dominant to Toyger - Coal we won't need a Lilac proof anyway, but if its recessive to Coal we will still a proof beyond doubt on the Lilac. We can be sure its dominant to Toyger - Snow because if the Burmilla - Lilac was hiding Snow that would be the original kitties hidden.

[1GaJulia Resident]

I specially checked it now.
My Maggie has all the solid traits, and I'm sure Burmilla Chocolate Caramel is still dominant Burmilla lilac

[Arwen Swordthain]

(09-02-2018 02:42 PM)1GaJulia Resident Wrote:  
I specially checked it now.
My Maggie has all the solid traits, and I'm sure Burmilla Chocolate Caramel is still dominant Burmilla lilac

We are all fairly sure its dominant to Burmilla - Lilac Shaded, unfortunately we do need a beyond doubt visual proof. Someone saying "I checked" isn't enough. We need to see the proof that the Burmilla Lilac line has no Toyger Snow in it. Its likely that that would require several charts at least to show it back to the sttarter or to catsthat predte the release of Toyger - Snow. Therefore a simple 1 chart proof where the Burmilla Lilac is pulled by a Toyger Snow would be best.

That said I do actually have a live provably pure Burmilla Lilac girl in my cattery right now and I am willing to lend her to anyone that would like to perform the test, she has the starter in her pedigree so its only a 2 or 3 chart proof to show shes pure.

---

In addition to a provably pure Burmilla - Lilac Shaded girl I also have a Toyger - Coal hiding male starter if anyone wants to use either cat to nail this fur down give me a shout and I'll send the cats over.

[Ivy Norsk]

Okay, I know we already are pretty sure that it's dominant to burmilla lilac shaded, but Tazzy Titanium pulled the fur with a toyger snow. So just that it's clearly on the charts, here we have Tazzy's pull.

[Eleanor8 Resident]

My Burmilla-Lilac lines go back to the starter I discovered Burmilla-Lilac on.

This is the line going back from Charlie's (the first Burm - Choc Caramel) grandfather.

All the rest of the lines go back to Eadie Superstar (the starter who hid Burmilla-Lilac). It will be page after page of posting pedigrees to show all Charlie's Burmilla-Lilac ancestors. If either Arwen or anyone else involved with Kittycats Proofs wishes to come and click through the pedigree of Charlie or one of my other Burm - Choc Caramels just let me know.

My Burm-Choc Caramels and the starter have now had Burm-Choc Caramel offspring with 10 different Burmilla-Lilac parents, all from the same line down from Eadie Superstar.

[Ivy Norsk]

Hi Eleanor, that's a very impressive set of charts there with a history-laden view of the discovery of Burmilla Lilac-shaded.

Let's go through it.
Some reference points from the Discoveries & Retirements google sheet.

Eleanor discovered the Burmilla Lilac Shaded from the Spring 2017 Collection on July/19/2017 which as of the 7th was 415 days ago. It was the most recessive fur and nothing could hide underneath it.
Rena Lopez discovered the Toyger Snow from the Winter 2017 Collection on 2/22/18. This was 197 days ago. It became the new recessive.

In order to demonstrate that Simson is pure burmilla lilac-shaded and that therefore Charlie's Burmilla Chocolate-Shaded fur is dominant to Burmilla Lilac, we need to get all cats in the line back before 197 days.

Chart#1 shows the pull:


It takes us back 124 days.

Chart #2 shows the pedigree of a male Burm-Lilac SW B F S.


It takes us back 302 days... long before the introduction of Toyger Snow.
Charts #3, #4, and #5 follow Burm-Lilac SW B F S's lineage back to the original pull that Eleanor made. Absolutely Burm-Lilac SW B F S is a pure Burmilla Lilac-Shaded.

A pedigree for Janiece is not presented but

Eleanor Wrote:All the rest of the lines go back to Eadie-Superstar (the starter who hid Burmilla-Lilac). It will be page after page of posting pedigrees to show all Charlie's Burmilla-Lilac ancestors. If either Arwen or anyone else involved with Kittycats Proofs wishes to come and click through the pedigree of Charlie or one of my other Burm - Choc Caramels just let me know.

Thank you. We don't need pages and pages. We just need the chart of Janiece's parents. That will get us past the 197-days-ago introduction of Toyger Snow.

Proving purity by going back to the starter is very hard work - as Eleanor has just demonstrated. But it's a really good demonstration for people to see. Thank you for posting all of this Eleanor.
It's vastly easier to pull the hidden.

[Eleanor8 Resident]

These two pedigrees take us back beyond 197 days. All the Burmilla-Lilacs in the pedigrees take us back eventually to Eadie Superstar.





And I agree it's much easier just to pull a hider, however every time I've tried that for proofs purposes it has proved a sure fire way to get the cat to pass it's visible fur. Which I suppose is no bad thing, just not what I was trying for.

[Ivy Norsk]

YES!
Through hard work and dedication and patience (both for her cats and for demanding chart-watchers), Eleanor has pulled it through!

I say yes! this definitively proves that Burmilla Chocolate Caramel is dominant to Burmilla Lilac-Shaded.

Now other people can look over these charts and charts of careful breeding and work. I don't think I missed anything, but if anybody does, give a holler.
I want to make it clear that I never doubted that Eleanor knew her cats. The point of this is to show the kind of rigor that's needed to make sure that the charts are 100% accurate, and that proofs - real proofs - are demonstrations that are self-contained and provide all the material that they need to prove their point.

Eleanor you deserve a trophy. It's a pain and a half to do what you did. These things don't pop up in the breeding forum very often but I really do think it's educational when they do.
Thank you again.