KittyCatS Love & Frustration

[Evolving Yin]

(01-10-2018 04:45 AM)Minx Diabolito Wrote:  Might be best to report under 'fraud' category because that is exactly what it is. It is not disclosed anywhere before you pay that you will be banned and lose your money with no refund given if you don't let him force you only to use his profilers. If you bought from marketplace report it there also. I see his site now has recently included the terms which say you will get banned for using anything but his profiler. The inworld listings and Marketplace listings do not include this info anywhere and never have - that's fraud that you buy something then later get forced into a horrible situation you never agreed to. He has every negative review removed on MP so it is hard to warn new people of the bad situation which awaits them.

I checked with Linden Labs support since I bought his product in world, and below is the response I got: I didn't report it as abuse because in my case I didn't think it was abuse just fraud. The only way at this point I can think to warn new breeders is via the forum and word of mouth, unless someone has a better idea.

"Hi Evolving, you can report fraud via Abuse Report inworld by clicking Help > Report Abuse...if it's a case of a purchase made and then users being banned from the sellers system and you feel you've suffered real world financial loss, that is something you would need to pursue outside of Second Life. In that particular case we would encourage you to seek private counsel on how to go forward with that.
-Jaida Linden"

[MitsuruKirijo06 Resident]

(01-10-2018 08:32 AM)Evolving Yin Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 04:45 AM)Minx Diabolito Wrote:  Might be best to report under 'fraud' category because that is exactly what it is. It is not disclosed anywhere before you pay that you will be banned and lose your money with no refund given if you don't let him force you only to use his profilers. If you bought from marketplace report it there also. I see his site now has recently included the terms which say you will get banned for using anything but his profiler. The inworld listings and Marketplace listings do not include this info anywhere and never have - that's fraud that you buy something then later get forced into a horrible situation you never agreed to. He has every negative review removed on MP so it is hard to warn new people of the bad situation which awaits them.

I checked with Linden Labs support since I bought his product in world, and below is the response I got: I didn't report it as abuse because in my case I didn't think it was abuse just fraud. The only way at this point I can think to warn new breeders is via the forum and word of mouth, unless someone has a better idea.

"Hi Evolving, you can report fraud via Abuse Report inworld by clicking Help > Report Abuse...if it's a case of a purchase made and then users being banned from the sellers system and you feel you've suffered real world financial loss, that is something you would need to pursue outside of Second Life. In that particular case we would encourage you to seek private counsel on how to go forward with that.
-Jaida Linden"

Rene discloses it now and has it listed in his rules that he may ban people for using other products but it still isnt right and the real question is When did he add that to his rules? If it was after people bought the product than that is fraud.

[Tad Carlucci]

Gotta love the Wayback Machine.

Dec 19, 2017

Quote:Guidelines
We all want this web market to be useful and fun to use. To keep it that way you need to follow the following simple guidelines.

Showing the price on the website is helpful for people who want to compare and buy a cat!. So make sure you all show the prices.
Don't forget to set your cats for sale. Otherwise people can't buy them.
Make sure the profiler and the cat you list on the web market is accessible to everyone, including Rene Marseille.
Please don't mute people for no reason. Issues can only be fixed by communicating with each other.
If someone doesn't follow a guideline please contact them and gently remind them. If the problem can't be fixed you can contact Rene Marseille.
More will be added if needed.

Have Fun!

Current

Quote:Terms of Service
These are the rules by which you must agree to abide by in order to use RM's Profiler and the Web Market.

Please note that these terms of service are subject to change without any prior notice.

The price of the cat must be visible on the website to help people to compare and buy a cat!.
Your cats must be set for sale in second life so people can buy them.
The Profilers and the cats you list on the web market must be accessible to everyone, including Rene Marseille.
You must make sure that Rene Marseille can contact you in case of issues.
You must not support people who have the need to copy RM's Profiler including the name.
We reserve the right to disable Profilers and access to the Web Market without any refund if we see a violation of the rules above.
Feel free to contact Rene Marseille for more information.

Have Fun!

[Evolving Yin]

Thanks Tad this is helpful. Last spring when he unbanned everyone he referred to changing the "Guidelines". Not sure when he started calling them Terms Of Service.

A year and half ago when I purchased my profiler neither using a competitor's profiler, nor the warning regarding disabling profilers was part of the guidelines. In fact, I never saw any guidelines when I purchased the product. There is nothing in the original box I purchased but instructions.

However, none of this is enforceable anyway according to the site I linked to below. I have read on numerous sites that both sides have to agree to the terms for them to be enforceable. I commend Rene for at least making an effort to clarify his terms, but he also needs to include those TOS as part of the purchase "Before the Customer Purchases the Product."

https://www.eff.org/wp/clicks-bind-ways-...ms-service

[Emilia Darkwatch]

He has been forcing people to choose for over a year... I think honestly it is being rather optimistic to think he has done this recent disclosure to be honest and transparent. In my view, there is simply no self awareness of how unreasonable and control mad his demands are... hence, they are now stated because he just cannot see the problem with them. It is quite normal to him to treat others this way yet many of us know that it really is not at all acceptable. I think this is more than likely... as no reasonable or respectful individual would make such demands or even imagine they could tell you what to put in your own store. They would not take pleasure in banning people which he does, it has been pasted here on this forum numerous times... though I have no idea why he gains any satisfaction from doing so, because he basically trashed his own business with his own freely chosen behaviour and created the very need for an alternative profiler due to it. The only gain he has is that he got your money first before showing his true colours. I have no doubt at all he cannot see any of this even though it is very very obvious to the rest of us. He is the victim.. except absolutely is not, apart from to himself

It is one messed up crazy drama which I am glad to no longer be a part of, since being banned from using the profilers for saying I had every right to use both and what I want in my own store. THAT does not need to be explained to any healthy minded person by any of us... yet many of us have and with what result? He just keeps on doing it because that is all bullies know how to do. And just for balance... how many times have you heard bad things of Torgon? I, myself, have only heard bad things once... and THAT was from Rene trying to smear him because he is like a baby who cannot deal with a competitor, whilst ironically making us all compete with ourselves and forcing us all to state prices when some of us may not have wished to for whatever the reason. It is just another example of how it has to be his way and the joke quite frankly of how you have paid for a product, and it's not cheap, only to have a nightmare forced onto you. I cannot with all conscience EVER recommend this for anyone... why would I? Especially when they can use Torgon's system... which way less to buy and far superior in experience

Also, just to mention, he really did not unban everyone in Spring. Not at all

[Illuminatra Resident]

Hi everyone!

I have been going back and forth with myself for a few days, trying to figure out how to add my two cents and if it would be worth doing so at all.

What has happened to some of you this week or even in the past is disturbing to say the least. When we log in to Second Life, we log in to destress, explore our creativity, our sense of community and the list goes on and on. We log in to escape some of the harsh aspects of real life. We want to be in a space where we feel accepted and can let go. When situations like this come up, all of that is taken away from us when it should not be.

Instead of innovating his product to be better or to help make the secondary market better, he is now trying to control the actions of his customers. What’s really the harm in using two different web markets? There is none. In the real world or even in here - when someone comes out with a product similar to yours and you were the “first,” guess what? It’s time to sit down with yourself and figure out a way to keep your customers interested in your product/service. It’s not time for you to back your customer in a corner and make them do x, y & z or else.

Now is the time for us, the members of the community to come together and protect everyone that belongs in this community. We are a community first above anything else. I hope that we all can continue on being a community and enjoying our cats. We cannot let this stop us from doing what we love. We love our cats and the community as a whole and that’s what we need to focus on - the love of our cats and the people of the community.

-Lumi

[Minx Diabolito]

Yes that's true Emi and yes Illuminatra you are right. Both of you make a good point that he is not able to actually adapt or do what a proper businessperson should be doing and infact the opposite. SL should be a happy place and not for extra stresses especially not when we just paid to have something that should be simple to use, not something to hold people over a barrel with and threaten them =/

[Tad Carlucci]

I won't debate the legality of implicit contacts in general, or of his ToS specifically. The case law is mixed on it.

It seems to me, though, the main change over the past month is that he's concerned about copybots, which is fine; and I don't see any prohibition against using competitor's products so I wonder where that comes from.

Most of his ToS is about maintaining the good operation of the web site, which he's allowed to do. His wording sucks and he's do a lot better if he hired a competent lawyer; a few wording changes would fix most of his problems.

It sounds like his biggest problem is probably his misinterpreting his prohibition against copybot'd versions of his product as an attempt to restrict competition. I would agree with Linden Labs in suggesting you refer to your lawyer. Of course, the monies involved are so low that unless you can get the US Federal Trade Commission interested in his attempt to restrict compention, I doubt there is much anyone can do other than 'vote with your shoes' as you've been doing.

[Minx Diabolito]

Sorry I do not know how to just quote part of a post but Tad when you say " I don't see any prohibition against using competitor's products" there is every prohibition because he is specifically speaking of anyone else who makes a profiler for the cats. Evidence of this comes from the many times people have been IMed and demanded not to use another profiler by name and then often get insulted for using it and told it is an inferior product and worse etc. Basically a smear campaign to make sure he has the only market which is not good business and in plain terms, is bullying. When a person does not comply with the demand to remove the other profiler they are told in no uncertain terms they are banned from the RM market because they did not do as he demanded. No businessperson with anything good going for them has to go around people who paid good money for their product and treat them this way with no respect.

You quoted this term - "You must not support people who have the need to copy RM's Profiler including the name". He is referring there to the other profiler. It is exactly what he said to me and many others I know with regard to using Torgon's. If he was speaking of copybot versions of his own he would not have over a year history of banning people left right and center for using Torgon's. He considers Torgon's to be a copy of his which is not true at all. Profilers existed before RM made his. He was the first one to make it for kittycats but so what? He messed up his own market for himself and still cannot see it. Regardless of why another profiler was ever created people have the right to create and use 100 types if they want, not suffer smear campaigns and customers harassed for using those because one crazy guy can't take that someone else makes an alternative product. He goes into their store or IMs them basically interrogating them and demanding to know why they use more than his profiler type. This is plain crazy and what right does he have to do this? None at all. If they do not comply and remove the other profiler he gets rude and bans them. This is just not okay. Just to go back to the original post for a sec, it is why Evolving got banned now and not a long time ago. She complied with the demands originally because she was scared and was not banned then because she gave into him. But after "Rene notified me that he is giving me 24 hours to choose either his profiler or Torgon's" she said no way and was, as always happens, banned. This is so wrong for what he does.

Also his site has frequently smeared KittyCatS directly, yet he would not have made a cent if it were not for them. Why? Same as always, they did not comply to his bullying demands for example to let him use the images which he never had any right to, and he then attacks instead of actually understanding what he has done wrong. It's a really very obvious and recurring theme, but a sad one.

[Tad Carlucci]

Yes, but it's not a copy. If it were an actual copy, the solution would be simple: file a DMCA take-down request. Even a cursory examination, however, shows it's not a copy. All a DMCA filing would do is get him flagged as an abuser.

As I said, while he's acting as if the ToS prohibits the competition, it does not. All it does is prohibit copies, which is quite reasonable.

He cannot prohibit similar ideas, only actual copies.

Copyrights apply automatically and he does not need to specifically disallow copyright violations as he does.

That leaves trademark and patent protections. While he does not have either, he has some claim that "RM Profiler" is a trade mark.

He cannot, however ask for patent enforcement without an actual letter of patent; which he does not have and is highly unlikely to obtain. Without a patent letter, his attempt to restrict completion seems like an unfair business practice, and could get him into trouble with the Trade Commission, who enforces those laws.

Remember harassment can go both ways. So people need to be careful not to violate the Linden Labs ToS. He does, as well. Banning people from his web site, however, does not violate the LL ToS, even if that effectively renders his product useless to purchasers.

What it comes down to, basically, is he does not seem to understand what is, and what is not, proper. If he sends unsolicited harassing in-world comments (or turns harassing during a civil in-world conversation), certainly: report him. Otherwise, it seems unlikely any effective legal action could be mounted, so just ignore him and move on to his competitor.