Profilers make playing KittyCats more interesting!

[Ivy Norsk]

I want to write a few words about database scraping and Terms of Service agreements.

Wired Magazine did a feature Valentine’s day story on a guy who joined the OKCupid dating site, but didn’t like/have faith in the way that the OKCupid algorithms worked. So, against the Terms of Service agreement, that he had signed when joining the site, he scraped the database and put in his own perimeters and worked out his own algorithm and his own dates. Apparently this worked out for him. This article can be found here: How a Math Genius Hacked OKCupid to Find True Love, if you wish to read it. Even though it was against terms of service apparently OKCupid did not sue him. Perhaps it was too much of a pain. Perhaps the attendant positive publicity with the article (and any negative publicity that would have come with suing the guy) made it okay.

In other words, the decision to sue or not to sue rests with the database provider. Suing people is a pain and expensive. And contentious. Also, Terms of Service agreements don’t always hold up in court. Linden Labs’s own Terms of Service agreement has been tested in court and failed to hold up.

Another story: Last year, my family had massive water damage in our kitchen and we had to completely gut it and remodel. We picked a paint color, tested swatches, had it completely painted on the walls and my husband and I looked at each other and both said “It’s too green.” We tried more swatches but the lighting from windows was such that colors that looked nicely gold on one wall looked orange on another. So we tried a different approach using RGB numbers. My husband, who programs databases (yep he does), scraped all the names, id numbers, and RGB values for yellows and golds of every major paint company in America. We proceeded to pick our color by upping the Reds number, and lowering the Greens number, and making sure that the blues were just right to keep the color from going too bright. We were thrilled with the ultimate result. What we did was unconventional, but it was not against Terms of Service. All the American paint companies deliberately keep open databases on their color systems which can be accessed by anybody but in particular are meant to be accessed by the hardware stores and major suppliers like Home Depot, that mix the paint. That industry has decided that the paint formula for the liquid itself is proprietary, but the color data (RGB) is not. And so any of you can actually walk into any paint store in the USA with a color name (and it helps if you have the id#) and they can mix you a can. Do they expect customers to do what we did? No. Was it fine? Yes.

KittyCats is a model of professionalism in Second Life. And yet, most businesses don’t really do some things until they’re forced to by circumstance. We do not sign Terms of Service agreements when we buy cats or kibble. That would be like signing a Terms of Service for buying a Diet Pepsi. But it is entirely reasonable for KittyCats to ask 3rd Party Developers using its database to sign such agreements. Such agreements could have a conduct and morals clause in it. Such a clause might well be unenforceable but it is still perfectly plausible and it could be there. The issue then is, having such a ToS, would KittyCats enforce it, legally. Which is an expensive pain and a half.

In the current situation, Rene Marseille has turned his profilers off and turned them back on. Turning them back on does not imply that he has come to any rapport with KittyCats.
I think the profilers are a fabulous tool. I have publicly thanked Rene for making them before. I will thank him again.
But I am deeply disturbed by the way this situation has run and don’t like the idea of a rogue 3rd party developer.
I would feel much better if I knew that 3rd party developers using the database had signed a Terms of Service agreement. Failing the signing of such an agreement, and maybe even with such an agreement having been signed, I think it might be better for KittyCats to create their own teleporting location service for traits.

[sneakpastu Resident]

I am glad to see them back on...but like others have expressed. I won't be putting them back out until some sort of okay from KittyCatS! itself. I realize that 3rd party items are not the responsibility of KittyCatS!, and I do hope that something can be worked out.

I know I enjoy the ability to tp to a cat I am specifically looking for trait wise. I am sorry if that upsets some that I'd rather tp to what I'm looking for - rather than wander around. For me it is a lag issue and I've even upgraded my internet service to fiber optic from dsl...and it's not changed my issue with lag at some of the larger places. Before the RM Profiler and website, I used the forums to find cats.

[doubledareme Resident]

(01-16-2017 05:31 AM)Lixy Byron Wrote:  

(01-16-2017 05:29 AM)Dimpz Morane Wrote:   Ok I have to admit I am really really confused here and trying to figure out how one persons product is condemned for use due to using Kittycat images and database thingy and another persons product is sanctioned fit for use http://kittycats.ws/forum/showthread.php?tid=24034
Please can someone explain this to me in simple terms.

Thank you

Was thinking the same, Dimpz.

Replying specifically to this post. I do believe there are some who have agreements with KittyCats to access their images. It remains up to KittyCats who they will do business with. Sometimes it is about who you would be associated with if you were to do business with them and if you are in harmony with their business ethics. I think Callie mentions this specifically in her letter.

[NellyGlitter Resident]

#JeSuisRene

I initially balked at having to price my cats to have them listed on the Market, but it does make sense. The Market is my primary source for buying and selling cats on the secondary market, and researching pedigrees. There is no other support beyond the messy pile that is the forum, and the pedigree database that is incomplete.

Hopefully, Callie will see the logic in supporting the secondary market breeding and selling quality cats. Negotiation is needed so we can all continue to use and enjoy BOTH products.

[Alassariah Resident]

I had some traffic with the profilers. I spent the month of December sick with the flu (3 times!), and have not been on much. I was sorting cats today, trying again to figure out what my breeding projects were and went to my little shop on my member parcel.

Zero traffic. Profilers turned off.

Then I checked the forums here for other subjects and found this thread. Thank you, Moonhowler, for starting it, and all for posting.

The sales I got, I am sure, were because of the profilers. I do not sell many at all, maybe a few a month. The profilers were very handy though, for seeing potentially hidden traits when I'd be shopping. If I had known Callie's creations were used without permission, and the subsequent harassment issues, I would not have bought it. Thanks for the heads up.

[MadyHades Resident]

According to Callie the reasons were : Customers have complaints of harassment, of having their product disabled, of having their privacy violated, The KittyCatS Profiler uses images without permission. and adding the pricing feature to web market.

The profilers/market were started few years ago and if making them was some DMCA act they should have been stopped when they came out. Now the market has become an important source for almost all breeders so shutting it down will be a massive loss for most breeders community.

If she cares for her community members then she must do a poll here and ask how many of the members use profilers and would want it. and how many people were harassed or have any knd of objection with it. So we all know who is where exactly ..

OR She should come up with a same tool and market so no one has any objection. I just say no matter what anybody does there will always be some ppl having any kind of objection. some ppl will never be happy no matter what you do

[Ivy Norsk]

I actually don't think Kittycats should be doing a poll on here; I think they should be consulting a lawyer about drafting a solid Terms of Service Agreement and having hard internal discussions about what they are willing and able to do in the future that would cover a wide variety of contingencies, not just about the current situation.

Remember that the DMCA is itself a piece of legal leverage which only covers a specific thing: digital artwork.
Also remember that situations develop, they don't necessarily spring full-formed into being.

[Draven Schapire]

(01-15-2017 08:28 PM)Ivy Norsk Wrote:  I don't think it's about "picture use". I think the issue is database scraping. I think talking about "pictures" is a shorthand way of talking about something that's more extensive, including all of the data fields for gender and whisker shape, cat age, etc. And not just one time database scraping, but persistent ongoing database scraping.

Callie may (or may not) have additional issues with reproduction of her artwork - I don't know - but my impression throughout this debate has been that KittyCats has never been happy about the database use but has grudgingly allowed it because as Callie said they don't want to stomp on 3rd party developers doing things for the community. And also because they can't really functionally stop it, only legally order it to be stopped, and they've been ambivalent about taking that route.

(Just my impression.)

I agree. Database scraping puts strain on the servers. My main concern here is how that affects users of the Cattery, Pedigrees, and other KC website features. For me personally, the Cattery has been much slower, often not loading at all without being closed and reopened or refreshed multiple times. I have to wonder if this is because of the hammering it's taking from 3rd party datamining. (Your husband probably knows more about the technical side than I do; I'd be happy to listen to a more in-depth explanation.)

I agree too with another post you made, regarding 3rd party users to sign Terms of Service agreements with KC. After all, KittyCats pays for the server usage and provides the information. Allowing someone else to hit the servers and use the information for free, to make their own profit, seems uncommonly generous. At least with a ToS in place, KC has some recourse in the event of a catastrophe (no pun intended.)

I think the Webmarket itself is a great tool. I've used it a time or two. While it won't drastically affect me one way or the other, I can certainly see how people who joined KC in the last couple years would rely on it. I'd like to see an agreement made with both parties involved for its continued usage, or an authorized alternative. (Perhaps the 3rd party would like to share the server fees with Callie?)

[Certified Lunasea]

I am still hoping that Callie and Rene can come to an amicable solution that works for both of them as well as those who breed and sell virtual cats. I know Rene reached out in this very thread to ask about using the images and I hope Callie responds to him here allowing everyone to know where the product stands as it is currently.

If the use of the images is acceptable to her and KittyCatS! then that is great. If not perhaps Rene can do something that will allow him to keep a version of the product usable and in customers hands. At the very least this should begin to open a dialog for the two of them to work through this situation so that both know what is expected and required for the product to exist both keeping in mind the interest of their shared customers.

With regard to an acceptable use policy I would say that an AUP should be a priority for any business. That said, I know there are many that do not have them and only put them together after something like this comes up. In this case I think it should have been a higher priority during creation of the KittyCatS! website. An AUP could have covered any issues from use of the text on the website, database access and usage, to the artwork that is stored on the server, and what party to contact for clarification or written permission for things. It could both grant and restrict users rights to use certain data with allowance for it's updating and evolution that would force current and previous users to remain in compliance through continued use. The fact that this document is missing makes issues like this more difficult, especially since Rene's product has been publicly used for so long and was even talked about on this forum for the last couple of years.

Honestly, I would hate to see people lose the use of something they paid for, especially given that many have been using this tool for a while and the profiler has helped those customers enjoy their KittyCatS! products more over the time it has been available. I would also hate to see people leave the KittyCatS! community over this, and unfortunately this kind of situation has the potential to cause just that.

In any case I hope there is an amicable solution for all parties involved, but at the end of the day we should all try to remember that we all love our virtual cats. Whatever the outcome or your opinion of the situation, that love for your virtual pets should not change.

[Oselkhandro Resident]

So, am I to understand that we cannot use the pictures of our cats without explicit permission from Callie?