Balinese, and the secondary market. Can we *avoid* having a round 2 of this?

[Mirsoul Resident]

I am really very new to the KittyCats community and when first started told myself....30 kitties is my limit. LOL well here I am at over 100 and I find it mind boggling that just when a project really starts to come together, BAM, it becomes reletively worthless.

Traits are more important to me on a kitty, I like to breed the traits in and see what I get. Now don't get me wrong, I have purchased high traited kitties to help me in this endeavor, but most of them I still have. Some have reached their age limit and I have given them away as pets, or sent them to the menagerie. i guess my point here is, the traits come out, whether it be fur, eyes, ears...etc. the market goes crazy over it, regardless of secondary traits that may be lacking. So it is not so much KittyCats releasing new traits, it is the greed of the market that drives the low traited Balinese, or the kitties with great eyes and nothing else to back them up. It has become a market of mass production for the highest amount of lindens regardless of secondary traits. For me personally, I take pride in knowing that the 9T boxes in my cattery, are a product of my research and work. And that those kitties that helped me get there, I can have again in their off spring. As for the 5-8T kitties i do sell, I can only hope that they will help somone else enjoy the breeding process.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

(06-20-2012 11:10 AM)Mirsoul Resident Wrote:  I am really very new to the KittyCats community and when first started told myself....30 kitties is my limit. LOL well here I am at over 100 and I find it mind boggling that just when a project really starts to come together, BAM, it becomes reletively worthless.

Traits are more important to me on a kitty, I like to breed the traits in and see what I get. Now don't get me wrong, I have purchased high traited kitties to help me in this endeavor, but most of them I still have. Some have reached their age limit and I have given them away as pets, or sent them to the menagerie. i guess my point here is, the traits come out, whether it be fur, eyes, ears...etc. the market goes crazy over it, regardless of secondary traits that may be lacking. So it is not so much KittyCats releasing new traits, it is the greed of the market that drives the low traited Balinese, or the kitties with great eyes and nothing else to back them up. It has become a market of mass production for the highest amount of lindens regardless of secondary traits. For me personally, I take pride in knowing that the 9T boxes in my cattery, are a product of my research and work. And that those kitties that helped me get there, I can have again in their off spring. As for the 5-8T kitties i do sell, I can only hope that they will help somone else enjoy the breeding process.

I so agree with you in all aspects!

[Charlotte Calael]

(06-16-2012 08:52 PM)Ethereal Hurricane Wrote:  Hello everyone! I'm posting this as a preemptive to the next fur release, whenever it might be, for KittyCatS.

As everyone knows, the Balinese cats are crazy popular, and they really are so pretty, they should be! I just have a few problems with how they were released, or rather their place in recessive list. The majority of them, and we might as well just assume all of them, are super recessive. All under Abyssinian Black Silvers in dominance order. I mean, yay for more recessive traits, but I think this actually made things worse for the secondary market.

I remember clearly when Seal Lynx was discovered, and how crazy everything got. People were paying 120k per cat, then doing anything they could to pull the fur and make their money back. Heck, I bought 2 myself, although I chose to try to trait mine, but eventually I started selling just like everyone else.

Lilac Lynx was soon after discovered. So the same thing, everyone wanted it, turned out to be more recessive than Black Silver also, but just under Seal Lynx. Well, okay, 2 very recessive furs at the same time. I guess that was okay. I mean we know there are going to be more Balinese furs, so it shouldn't be a big deal.

Next came Chocolate Lynx. Oh...it too is more recessive than Black Silver? Ugh, my really pretty and traited Black Silvers just keep getting less and less valuable on that secondary market...Now we have 2 more Lynx, Flame and Cream, which, one can really just assume they are also going to be around Black Silvers in recessive order, hopefully they aren't, but lets just assume they are.

I've sat around and thought about this for a while, and have watched the trend, and it has really ruined the secondary market. What we have now, is people buying these highly recessive furs, needing to make their money back, and selling 10 to 15 opened boxes at their cat stall, for so cheap, driving the market on these furs down, and on top of that, making every fur under them devalued as well. People 'shopping cat pedigrees to try to prove their furs are more recessive. People mass breeding to make that Phat Ca$h not even bothering to try to pull traits, just mashing 2 cats together to get another pulled fur, and selling it to the highest bidder, which these days, isn't very high. Almost everyone has a Balinese of some sort. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but they shouldn't have all gotten them at the same time, that's for sure. I mean in my cattery we're using Balinese to pull furs from starters at this point, just because we have so many that aren't traited enough for us to bother selling. I'm not bragging, I'm actually annoyed by this.

->To get to the point, the next round of new furs, can we please spread them out a bit in terms of dominance orders? You guys did a wonderful job with the Abyssinian, and all of the other cats before that, why not keep doing that? People to this day still highly value an Aby Lilac, and it isn't the most recessive of fur.

I'm not saying Balinese aren't a good fur, they are amazing. They are very pretty, but so is every cat honestly. Callie works very hard on every cat, making them as real as she can. Pink and White #1, Siamese Seal, all of them are nice. They don't need to always be the most recessive though.

I'd really love to hear what other people think about this situation and see if anyone else feels the same way I do. I'm not the best of writers, so hopefully my point didn't get lost in my walls of text.

Quote:TLR
Please, on your next release, don't make every single cat the most recessive, spread them kids out!

On a side note/rant:

I know you cant stop the money game of KittyCatS. Some people are here just to make money. One could make that claim about me even. But now we have people selling their new Balinese furs for IRL money, just because they got lucky, and not even bothering to put the money back into the community. It's sickening. I'm not here to tell you what to do with your money, go do whatever you want, but I'm sick of these people who are here just to make a quick buck and get their booty kissed all day, not because they did anything skillful, or did some nice breeding, no, just because they got lucky. You aren't a wonderful breeder because you bought 2 cats, combined them, and got a 9 traited cat. You aren't a wonderful breeder because you bought a cat for 200k, and did something everyone else would have done to pull the fur, and sold it. You aren't a master of KittyCatS, just because you got lucky, this is a community, no one is the star, get off your high horses and have a wonderful day! <3

Well KittyCats did it again (making many furs that are recessiv to Abyssinian Black Silver and EVEN to Balinese seal Lynx) Ocicat Blue Ocicat Ebony Balinese Cream Balinese Flame. ALL seems to be recessiv to Balinese Lilac and a few of them are recessiv to the balinese Seal as well!! This was bad for the secondary market last time when we got the choco, lilac and the seal lynxes..

[Tad Carlucci]

I'm not sure where I stand on the placement of new fur traits. Constantly making them more recessive makes them harder to discover, but easier to reproduce once you do. Shuffling them into the middle somewhere makes them easier to discover, but harder to reproduce, at least until you refine a 'true pure' of the trait.

That said, maybe the problem is timing and quantity? I know the artists naturally want to put their work 'live' and get that good feeling when people appreciate it. But, maybe, management needs to step in and give them a quota: "No more than X new furs per quarter." or something like that?

I don't closely monitor populations for KittyCatS like I do with another breedable. But my observations over there indicate to me that there is a "sweet spot" where discoveries maintain populations (my theory: indicative of maintaining a healthy market). Too low and things sink. To high and people feel burned out and we see comments as we're seeing on this thread (and others in the past). Yes, that shows my mathematical bend, but I do believe that some good data collection and analysis would aid management finding that "sweet spot" and setting guidance for the creative staff to help them find and maintain it.

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

(06-17-2012 06:23 AM)Ethereal Hurricane Wrote:  Every cat has a use. If you think of it in terms of common vs rare, dominant cats serve to increase the value of recessive furs. This is kinda the problem with the Balinese, they aren't rare at all, and yet they are the most recessive furs. You go to an auction and theres a good chance at least 2 will be on special panels, heck, 3 isn't even surprising. That's a problem, especially after months of this.

I am pretty sure that the grey and white 2 is more RARE than any Balinese right now =op

[Sara Franco]

(07-01-2012 09:46 PM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  

(06-17-2012 06:23 AM)Ethereal Hurricane Wrote:  Every cat has a use. If you think of it in terms of common vs rare, dominant cats serve to increase the value of recessive furs. This is kinda the problem with the Balinese, they aren't rare at all, and yet they are the most recessive furs. You go to an auction and theres a good chance at least 2 will be on special panels, heck, 3 isn't even surprising. That's a problem, especially after months of this.

I am pretty sure that the grey and white 2 is more RARE than any Balinese right now =op

LOL I had a hard time finding a Chateau Cocoa/White No. 2 , it is very rare really.

[DrusillaRose Resident]

I bought a 3 trait Aby B/S a little while ago and I am only now breeding with him.I am looking forward to what other other traits I can get on this beautiful fur.I am yet to have a Balinese of any kind and I'm in no great hurry to get one at this stage..I enjoy breeding the Chateau in all fur types still and the Black Russians too,my best traited KittyCats are SnowShoe Lilacs.My goal here is to one day be able to fill up all my properties with all my cats that breed lovely kittens for me,I enjoy that more than anything and I'm still yet to sell any of my cat and kittens,although I have given away two cats to good homes..

[Devilness Chant]

I've read most of what I could (it's a lot of reading) lol. And just wanted to say a few things.
There was a time when I blamed KC for controlling and ruining the market, but have learned that isn't so. Not because I got lucky, but because I finally learned how to breed better. That is why I try to help new ppl and I take ims from ppl that have questions and help them as best as I can.
KC does not control the market. We do. We have our faves that we will pay more for and some that we won't touch.
My first new fur was an Oci Choco. No one wanted them. I gave them all away.
When I sold my lilacs there were ppl that paid good money for them. It's only right they make their money back and profit. That is what business is about.
For that reason I sold one a week in auction. When prices started to drop some, I did raffles for OS so that ppl that didn't want or couldn't pay the higher prices would get a chance to have one since they are a beautiful fur. I never sold them out of my shop and I didn't flood the market with them. I gave more away to friends than i ever sold.
Flooding the market, undercutting others prices and favoritism of traits is what kills the market. Not KC. Not the high prices. We do.
The ones that mass produce and sell for less than a fraction of the going rate are the ones that hurt your market.
Why should I pay 20k for a kitty I can get for 2 or even 5k?
I've been breeding for over a year and was happy to make a little to help pay for kibble. But as the market flooded most of mine sat on shelves and collected dust.
Why should someone pay me even 1k for a nice bengal snow loaded with all kinds of traits when they can find one for 200? I put months into my Bengal snows and money into buying nice traits to put into them and the kibble and milk.
It is an ever changing market and we have to change with it. Prices drop, ppl change fave traits, new things come out.
What always kept me breeding is the fact that I adore my kitties and the wonderful friends I've made here.
I've been here long enough to see Kittycats evolve. They listen to us and do the best they can to make us "all" happy. They give the best customer service I've ever seen anywhere.
The last thing I want to add and I really hope it makes some ppl think. With all the money KC makes from sales, why in the world would they need to control the 2nd market? They already have an outstanding product and customer service. And most of us have just been breeding because it's something we enjoy.

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

That's a really good point Dev..it all comes down to supply and demand I guess. As long as there are breeders willing to pay a lot to be the first ones breeding the new traits and the ones who got lucky and discovered them are willing to sell we'll have a bit of insanity whenever something new shows up. I remember when I got the sublime..I didn't sell the first few as I wanted a breeding pair..but then I did auction some. It was nice to have a few extra L$, though they never went for anything near what the Bali furs commanded lol. But it didn't take long for the eyes to spread out through the market and of course, the value dropped and leveled off based on how recessive the eye is.

The problem I think is in how we as consumers react to new traits. The first thing we want to know is "How recessive is it?" Because we have learned that recessiveness = value in the market. Recessive has it's place but maybe it would be looked at again. Please correct me if I am wrong on how this works...but my thinking is that is it possible to get say a Bali Flame straight from a starter? Maybe...if things like that were introduced differently..say..giving all other Bali's a small chance to produce a Bali Flame or something it may take some extended breeding to get it to show and it would be a great surprise. There may be good reason why that wouldn't work..just saying..it's a thought.

I remember the Nacht's talking recently about when the first Bengal Snows were found..I can't remember the breeder's name but was told it was a loooooong time before any were sold. And it was also a while it seems before anything more recessive showed up..I guess it was the RFL's from last year that introduced something more recessive if I remember right.

Point is....I think we place an inflated value on recessiveness. It is very useful for breeding of course and..all the cats are lovely to look at..but it's us...the people doing the buying and selling that decide what has value and what doesn't. To me...Rare means a lot more than Recessive

With all I have had going on in RL lately, I have been out of the loop for a bit and did notice that many many shops dropped their prices on kitties that were highly sought after before my brief hiatus. I have decided to just work on a few projects for my own pleasure, keep my little stall stocked with some good boxes and give up trying to figure it all out lol.

Hugs,
Noc

[Kayleigh McMillan]

(07-09-2012 12:32 AM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  ... Point is....I think we place an inflated value on recessiveness. It is very useful for breeding of course and..all the cats are lovely to look at..but it's us...the people doing the buying and selling that decide what has value and what doesn't. To me...Rare means a lot more than Recessive ...

I agree with you so much!
I'm a huge fan of everything red and flame: Siameses, Snowshoes and Balineses so I absolutely love the new Balinese Flame and I went to an auction and "won" it.
Someone cared to IM me while I was bidding to tell me the cream Balinese is more recessive than the flame.
This ofcourse was kind of this person but not at all at interest for me I just wanted the Flame Balinese as I was so in love while I would not pay that same amount for the even more recessive cream (I have not seen the proof myself though).
Frankly I don't care for recessive but I care for cute
And yes rare to me means way more than recessive as well and ofcourse if I have a click with a fur or a trait combination.
I adore for example the chateau Grey & White no 2 while I don't see it often.
I can only hope people are going to care for more than recessive alone eventhough I understand the recessive hype since there are so much traits and furs released in the recessive range, but yeah is it that important is the question ...