Abyssinian Ruddy Recessivness

[AbiJen Resident]

It appears that the Aby Ruddy placement in the Saga charts is incorrect. As per Kayla's reccomendation, i'm starting a thread in the hopes that others will add their findings and the position can be fixed.

The charts show Aby Ruddy as dominant to ASH Cream & White Tabby, however when pairing a Cream & White with a Foxie Blondie i recieved an Aby Ruddy OS. the same mom paired with an Australian Mist - Fawn also gave an Aby Ruddy OS.

[Kayla Woodrunner]

Good to know Abi.

(Copied from Cream & White Tabby thread)
Your proof is pretty conclusive that Ruddy is recessive to Cream & White, AbiJen.

Some of the earlier furs may need slight adjustments.

I don't think the current volunteers were involved in the earliest work. It doesn't happen often that a trait needs to be moved but it does happen. I remember my shock when I found on my cats taht Exotic Treasure and Double Dip needed to be flipped. I sent in my proofs and they corrected it. Until then I thought Saga's charts was "perfect". Now I think it's maybe 90-95% which is still pretty good. It's probably why they instituted the 2 chart rule for final proof. As more people become savvy in dominance (a hid cannot be dominant), I think all of us together will find any others in the wrong spot.

Please send your proof to Saga's so they can put it in their notes on the bottom.

Meantime, I'll add this section to the list


Abyssinian Ruddy
Snowshoe Chocolate
Cream & White Tabby
Tawny Tabby

If anyone has Snowshoe Chocolate out, maybe they could pair up with someone who has Aby Ruddy or Cream & White Tabby. I am thinking if Ruddy is going to go under Tabby, it should be checked if the Snowshoe is really recessive to Ruddy.

(end copy)

[Wendi Lavendel]

So Charles and I have spent last night and most of today analysing this post plus several others, along with whatever old proofs we could find in the archives and have determined what's what. Here's a summary of what we're posting here, in case you'd like to jump to a specific section:

Affected Furs and New Placements
Action Items
How You Can Help

Affected Furs and New Placements

These are the furs that are affected by this issue:
Abyssinian Ruddy
Cream & White Tabby
Snowshoe Chocolate
Ocicat Black

The first 3 of those furs were proven before we were chart managers, so there's very little in terms of records to show us what was proven and how. We did find a number of recent proofs of other furs that use the affected furs as a reference point. We reviewed them all and determined which ones are still valid (most of them) and were able to use those as reference points to determine where the affected furs can be placed in the charts.

We've been able to determine the following, although some of this is a bit loose:

Ocicat Black's placement was based on Abyssinian Ruddy, so we have to backtrack and reset Ocicat Black to be recessive to Foxie Auburn.
- this post shows Ocicat Black recessive to Foxie Aburn: https://kittycats.ws/forum/showthread.php?tid=23127

Abyssinian Ruddy can be proven to be dominant to Abyssinian Creme.
- this post shows Abyssinian Ruddy is dominant to Abyssinian Creme: https://kittycats.ws/forum/showthread.php?tid=17673
- also, this current post that contains this reply clearly shows that Abyssinian Ruddy was drawn out from behind the Cream & White Tabby by the Foxie Blondie
- undocumented proofs that were referred to in various other forum posts indicated that Abyssinian Ruddy is recessive to Ocicat Black, so we're going to go with that until we see something to the contrary. That would make Abyssinian Ruddy recessive to Foxie Auburn and Ocicat Black dominant to Abyssinian Creme.

Cream & White Tabby, and Snowshoe Chocolate are old, original furs, so we are hoping that they were placed far enough in the past that they are accurate in relation to the other older, original furs.

We did find a couple of Snowshoe Chocolate proofs from a few years ago that have it dominant to Chateau Cocoa & White No.2, and one more recent proof for Abyssinian Creme being recessive to Snowshoe Chocolate.
We also can confirm that Snowshoe Chocolate is recessive to American Shorthair Brown & White Patch:
https://gyazo.com/75fd04447ae86a75c4b7fda4e8797095

We couldn't find any record of Cream & White Tabby proofs, but did find several proofs that used Cream & White Tabby as a reference point:
- Cream & White Tabby is definitely dominant to Tawny Tabby: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-iba6e...sp=sharing
- Cream & White Tabby is recessive to Siamese Lilac: https://gyazo.com/daed93ce4d77550351657ad4288cb0fb (Drew hides CW Tab) and https://gyazo.com/d05357e07ea95d6be7b8d93f975341c8 (Siamese Lilac)

Action Items

We want to focus more on Abyssinian Ruddy and Ocicat Black because the Cream & White Tabby and Snowshoe Chocolate were placed a long time ago and are likely in the right spots in relation to the other older furs:

Piority #1: Abyssinian Ruddy vs. Tawny Tabby is definitely a top priority, because if Ruddy is dominant to the Tawny, we can establish Foxie Auburn > Oci Black > Ruddy > Tawny Tabby as a locked in sequence. Then we only have Snowshoe Chocolate and Cream & White Tabby to worry about.

Priority #2: Any of the following:
Snowshoe Choc vs. Foxie Auburn
Snowshoe Choc vs. Cream & White Tabby
Oci Black vs. Cream & White Tabby

If we can confirm those, that should give us a good framework. If they can fall into a certain order, it could fix everything fairly quickly.

Any confirmation of Abyssinian Ruddy and Ocicat Black would be welcome, just to be on the safe side.

The charts will be updated with a range for Abyssinian Ruddy and Ocicat Black:

Abyssinian Ruddy: now between Foxie Auburn/Ocicat Black and Abyssinian Creme.
Ocicat Black: now between Foxie Auburn and Abyssinian Ruddy/Abyssinian Creme.

We are also going to pull out Snowshoe Chocolate and Cream & White Tabby and put them on the side column until we can confirm that they're where they should be.

It is advised that you don't use any of those furs when proving other furs' placement.


How You Can Help

We are looking for people who are interested in helping us out with these action items, specifically:

- people willing to search their cattery/inventory/etc for old proofs they might have regarding any of the furs mentioned. Maybe you sent something in a long time ago to another chart manager? Maybe you've got some current cats with these furs that can help us with these proofs? Keep an eye out when you're shopping or at auctions for cats with these furs, too! Send your proofs through the regular channels (full perm pedigree image(s) sent to SagaKitty Resident or screen shots emailed to SagaKittySL@gmail.com) or you can post them in reply to this thread.

- people willing to test any of the furs mentioned, particuarly the priority action items

- people willing to donate boxes that are showing any of the affected furs, or that have clear proof that boxes are hiding affected furs (they don't have to be nice boxes, give us your duds; you can arrange to get your live kitty back when it's no longer needed, if you wish) We've already set aside some old boxes to donate, but more are always welcome.

- people willing to donate kibble/milk to help those who want to do proofs but can't provide kibble/milk (see NOTE below)

To help out in any way, contact any or all of the following
Bree Ann (brunabug.nightfire)
Kayla Woodrunner (kayla.woodrunner)
Charles Courtois-Oh (charles.courtois)
WendiKitteh (wendi.lavendel)

NOTE: If you would like to help prove stuff but don't have the space/prims/food/milk, we can help. Contact the people mentioned above for more information.

If you would like to help in any other way, please contact any of the people mentioned above.

[Kayla Woodrunner]

on the Abyssinian Ruddy vs Cream & White Tabby issue, I've been talking to the Saga folks about it. It turns out because they are very early furs before the current volunteers became chart managers, they don't have charts from that time. So the following furs need to be retested. They have some land they will dedicate to this chart testing and kibble. They have a set up a team to work on this -- and I have volunteered for the team so will be working with them directly

Furs to be retested
Abyssinian Ruddy
Cream & White Tabby
Snowshoe Chocolate

and Ocicat Black because it was placed due through Aby Ruddy

Cool thing is some past chart proofs on the forums are helping to keep things set so not everything needs to be restested. This will also provide charts tht they file these days (Cream & White Tabby and Snowshoe Chocolate are original furs from the beginning!). That way if htere are future questions, the charts will be on hand to check against.

So here are the prioities

Piority #1: Abyssinian Ruddy vs. Tawny Tabby
Quote from the note Saga sent me
"Priority #1: Abyssinian Ruddy vs. Tawny Tabby is definitely a top priority, because if Ruddy is dominant to the Tawny, we can establish Foxie Auburn > Oci Black > Ruddy > Tawny Tabby as a locked in sequence. Then we only have Snowshoe Chocolate and Cream & White Tabby to worry about."

Also from their note
"Priority #2: Any of the following:
Snowshoe Choc vs. Foxie Auburn
Snowshoe Choc vs. Cream & White Tabby
Oci Black vs. Cream & White Tabby
If we can confirm those 4, that should give us a good framework. If they can fall into a certain order, it could fix everything fairly quickly.

Any confirmation of Abyssinian Ruddy and Ocicat Black would be welcome, just to be on the safe side."

If you have charts with those pairings proven, please post int he forum and send to Saga. If you are willing to do a breeding, Saga can set you up with a square on the project land (kibble will be out for people willing to do these tests)

If you have one fur out but not the other, say so, maybe we can do some team pairings.

[Kayla Woodrunner]

Found this old thread from 2012

order of Abyssinian - Ruddy vs Snowshoe - Chocolate
https://kittycats.ws/forum/showthread.php?tid=3093&highlight=%22snowshoe+chocolate%22

One post says this but doesn't show a corresponding chart
03-20-2012, 05:26 PM
Post: #6
Sanura Snowpaw Offline
RE: order of Abyssinian - Ruddy vs Snowshoe - Chocolate
I've gotten Ruddy from a pair of Snowshoe Chocolates so the Ruddy has to be more recessive then the Snowshoe Chocolate.
-- end post

It would be good if we had that chart. If anyone knows Sanura, maybe you can ask her to post the chart if she stll has it -- it's a while back so may be a long shot.

[Rheaven Resident]

Marishka and I would like to say that since the current Saga staff have taken over and have added more steps to go through before accepting changes in the traits, the Saga Charts are now a lot more accurate.

With anything of this scale of work that is done by humans errors can happen, when errors are found the Saga Staff work for hours to correct it, the help that we (KittyCat Breeders) can give the Staff is very much appreciated. Some info they get from the Breeders is wrong, but there there is a lot more that is very helpful and it does help make the Saga Staff lives a little easier.

Please if you have what you think is proof that a trait can be placed better, then please send a Gyazo or other picture proof of the pedigree of that cat or the box's pedigree.

Marishka and I would love to give many thanks to all the Saga Staff for the wonderful job they are doing. We really appreciate all the time and work you all do.

Marishka & Rheaven Tussaud

[Alassariah Resident]

I have this Ocicat Black female paired with my Tonk Champagne (was trying to prove his fur but that's up in the air now). They will mate in 2 days and she will be ready for borrowing as I don't have a cream & white tabby.



The live Aby Ruddy I have:



and boxed Tawny Tabby:



could also participate.

From what I have learned so far in pulling, all of their hides should be safely ranked from Siamese Chocolate Tortie to more recessive. I'll birth the Tawny Tabby and start getting him ready.

[Wendi Lavendel]

Those are great cats for testing! We could pass you whatever furs you need for testing, if you want to give it a go, drop any one of us an IM or one of us will message you

[Alassariah Resident]

Thank you! I would need a male showing cream & white tabby, and if you'd like me to test the snowshoe chocolate, I would need at least a male showing that as well. I can always breed for the female if one is not available, and I have all of the others live.

I'd like to request food help too, please. My cattery numbers grew so high I've had to make cutbacks. I have milk in the feeder on my member parcel and can put the testers there. I have no lives on the grid and the food would be only for them.

Quick edit: I do not have the Foxie Auburn after all. If I understand correctly, that should be tested against the Snowshoe Chocolate so a female showing Foxie Auburn would be needed if you'd like me to test that as well.

[AbiJen Resident]

Jane, the mom that started this whole thing is about to hit 100% love if anyone needs a female to test with. She's the Cream and White hiding Aby. Ruddy. Let me know if anyone has a use for her to narrow things down.