Kitty pricing!

[Kayleigh McMillan]

I have kind of mixed feelings about this topic.
I've never bred for the money but one of the only ways we have to present value to our breeds is money and I sure have a line I won't cross.
The past year I see such shocking low prices it is hard for me to find my place within the current market dynamics.
My husband and I have debated much about just continue for our hobby and share cats with closed purses among friends and close our shop which we recently did.
I think I love the kitties too much to mark them as low as which has became the standard lately I much rather give them away frankly.
Something in me can't cope with the decrease of value from the kitties.
Of course emotionally they are priceless but I can't find myself in the value most sellers give their kitties it is like too cheap and KittyCatS! are everything but cheap.
Not sure if I am rambling or if it makes sense lol

EDIT With not breeding for the money I mean I always breed an amount of kitties I can financially support regardless sales.
I am happy I always stuck to that because now I can continue breeding as I did without the need of having a shop.
Having a shop is no longer fun for me.

[Devilness Chant]

I told myself I was going to stay out of forums, but it's so nice to see friendly respectful discussion. Sooooooo I wanted to give my friendly respectful 2L of thought.

Pricing and selling kitties has always been a nightmare. For me, I always tried to price at the mid range of what I've seen in shops. But when a kitty or a box sits on a shelf because the market has a million kitties that are similar to mine, I don't mind dropping the price down in the hopes that it sells. Not just for the money, but I want someone to enjoy breeding that line into theirs. Maybe that kitty is underpriced. But I would rather someone get enjoyment out of my work than see it collect dust on a shelf.

To me, (no disrespect intended, it's just my observations) They say you can't judge a book by it's cover, the same can be said about judging a box by it's price. Just an example. I was at an auction where a new trait was up for bid. People were bidding high because it was a newer trait. (yes I have been called a purist, but with good reason) When I looked into the pedigree I saw that the trait had been pulled with a more rec trait. The more rec trait is all over the market for the price of an older trait.
To me, (and again this is just the purist in me) When there is a hidden trait, and you or anyone after you, inbreeds for that trait, chances are, you are going to get the older rec trait. To me that decreases the value of the newer trait. Now you have an expensive kitty that you have to be very careful breeding. And when you sell the os to others, they have to be more mindful of those rec traits also. And a lot of times, those rec traits are back in the pedigree where you don't see them. Those lil buggers pop out when you don't want them too. (but when you do want them to they are suburn!) lol

I've looked under the hood of a lot of kitties, and seen some expensive duds. I bought those 5k and 10k kitties in the past and was disappointed many times. There were some that were amazing, please don't get me wrong.

I've looked under the hood of those less expensive kitties and while many weren't very impressive, some were works of art. Maybe an experienced breeder shared some of their babies with a new person, maybe the person selling the less expensive boxes just couldn't stand to see them collecting dust.

Some people feel that the price of their kitties reflects the value of their time and investment put into that kitty.
Some feel that the price reflects their want to share their work and investment with others that don't or can't have the lindens to pay higher prices. Or that they just don't want all the work to sit on a shelf collecting dust.
Some price because it is a huge competitive market and want money to help support their hobby.
Everyone has different reasons. We are a diverse community.

No matter what the reason is behind pricing. The one common thread we all share is the love of breeding and the pride we take in our babies.

*edit I wanted to apologize for using the term dud. I meant nothing by it was just tired when I posted this. No kitty is a dud.

[Kitten Longmeadow]

Hi guys. I am going to jump back into this topic again.

Pricing is a contentious issue. Everyone has their own opinion of the right way or wrong way to go about it. We encourage healthy debate and discussion in accordance with our group guideline to keep chat respectful.

If you have a problem with a specific person and their actions, please contact that person directly and discuss the issue with them. So for example, if you are concerned that a specific person is pricing their cats too low on a consistent basis, it would be a good idea to contact that person directly, especially since many people do not read the forums and may not be aware this is a hot button issue.

If you have a general concern about cats being priced too low across the market, it's fine to discuss that, but please try to keep the discussion centered around your thoughts and feelings on pricing, and not about the actions of specific individuals (whether they are named or not.)

Thanks for your understanding and cooperation!

[Nektuu Wytchwood]

I wish to point out the Kittycat's prices for starter kitties. Which sure can contain the latest traits but the latest traits are not necessarily new depending how much time has passed since the last release.

Single Boy: 298L for a boy kittycat and food for 1 week
Single Girl: 298L for a girl kittycat and food for 1 week
1 pair: 599L for a pair of kittycats (1 boy, 1 girl) and food for 1 week
2 pairs: 1500L for 2 pairs of kittycats (2 boys, 2 girls) and food for 2 weeks
5 pairs: 4500L for 5 pairs of kittycats (5 boys, 5 girls), food for 2 weeks, love10%, Energy 10%, breakup and healing vitamins

That means there is a base price for every starter kitty ~1.5$ USD

So for all of you out there who put 6-9T kitties for 100-200L$ it means you sell a 6-9T kitty for 0.7-1.4$ USD that is your kitty is worth LESS than a starter kitty.

The minimum cost to produce a kitty box with NO milk is 74.5lindens. This actually gives you a profit margin of 25.5-125.5L$ for a 100-200L$ kitty.

Which TRANSLATES to ---> 0.41$ USD - 0.82$ USD

LOL

Seriously I REPEAT

Someone who sells for 100-200L$ kittybox (lets not include additional costs ONLY the food) can expect the MOST a return of 0.41-0.82$ USD per box.

Personally even 40 boxes for 100L$ does not worth my time. I prefer to have some decent 6-9T cats and sell them with base 50-200L$ per trait (higher for rare/cute/new traits) than what some people suggest.

How "rubbish" do you consider a kitty to put a price tag that low! Lower than a starter kitty?!

Fabao tells us, I QUOTE from his post above:-

"Another reason is simple
Each product created there is a 'lifetime'. Thus, a cat built today, in three months, he is worthless.
Think of a cake made today. The price of this cake is high. just came out hot from the oven. AMs, the cake has a shelf life. So every day that passes, the price is reduced so that the cake is sold. Then comes the day limit, or sell this cake today, or he goes to waste. So, better to have a prejudice and sell it for a price below cost, than send the cake to the menagerie."


And here is where I have a completely different view. Kittycats do not have a lifetime during which they worth something and then they are useless. How much is any kitty with purple rain eyes worth if you can find NOWHERE purple rain??

A cat built today in three months is worthless he says. Nothing further from the true. I price my marketplace kitties the way I described above they will sell today, next week, next month, in three months, in a year. I know because I am still selling cats for the same price I put them up for, many MONTHS ago. So please. There is no excuse to sell a cat dirt cheap. It is not worth the lindens you will get for the time and work and investment you put into it.

As for the menagerie. THINK! What if we did not have that we would have actually to delete the cats. All the people that complain and talk negative about the menagerie I wonder how much more negative they would talk if they actually had to DELETE their kitties.

The menagerie is actually an ingenious solution and people should be more appreciative of its existence.

I want to finish saying if your kitty is so worthless that you price it below cost just to leave your hands then certainly you try to sell it to the "sucker" that does not understand that he or she would be better off with a kitty better traited than yours. As such you do double injustice, to yourself as a seller you dont respect your merchandise and to the buyer who without knowing any better you take advantage of them.

I am sorry about the tone of this post. But really when I think of it it makes me angry when people undermine the value of kittycats. And YES to perma a kitty you need 1500L$ minimum so any cat you perma worths a minimum 1500 L$ and above.

Too much? I don't think so.

[Ivy Norsk]

Thank you Nektuu. There are several good things about this post.

First off, the math. Math is always good. It grounds all discussions (and everybody understands that it's not personal; it's across the board.)

Let me go over two more points:

Fabao Wrote:Each product created there is a 'lifetime'. Thus, a cat built today, in three months, he is worthless.

This particular stance is built upon a very specific sort of cat breeding. It is a side-effect of the trait race. If the way a person plays the "game" OR "business" of KittyCatS is to always be digging for the newest traits right away, or buying them at market at their first auction appearance - this is a race. And it's a high-stakes race, laying out a lot of money for those hot new traits and also maintaining a super-recessive stable of cats for trait digging. I am not saying this is wrong. But it is a very particular approach. It is a natural consequence of this particular breeding method that the 3-month old cats are no longer useful - not useful within the same approach of keeping one's breeding stable super recessive. Ever onwards...

That kind of approach isn't relevant outside of the trait race. Yes, it helps to have a stable of fairly recessive cats for trait-digging with the LEs, but those can be much much older. In fact a cat with tiger traits (which don't appear in regular LEs) works quite well for pegging whether you've got something more or less recessive. And of course, if one is breeding dream kitties or "boutique" or "retro" kitties, the more traits the better and, as you said, old traits are very desirable.

One thing about Menagerie. SWEETEN UP THE MENAGERIE. New tigers, new something. And frankly, it would be better if Menagerie paid more than 20L or so. The markets have been running for years now with basically too many cats on the grid and it really would help to tighten up the supply.

[phoenixfire01 Resident]

"And here is where I have a completely different view. Kittycats do not have a lifetime during which they worth something and then they are useless. How much is any kitty with purple rain eyes worth if you can find NOWHERE purple rain??" ............. Nektuu Said

Hey Nektuu,

I have 1 Male Purple Rain eyed Foxie S&P with Sassy Tail 7T lol

Ok I've not really said anything on this thread and I know a couple of people will be rolling their eyes People will ALWAYS sell 6-9T cats for 50-100L a piece. Nothing will change that, not new Menagerie Tigers, not more Kitty Bucks for menagering kitties. I know this to be a fact. When this thread was still in it's first couple of pages, notices of 50-100L cats sales were being posted. It gets to a point where you just end up with too many boxes and not enough store space. Sure you can hold onto them but realistically, they will just collect cyber dust. People do these sales for their own reasons. Maybe they have decided KC is not for them and are selling up and would rather not have all these cats laying around and would rather sell them cheap to recover a tiny portion of what they put out and to get rid of course. Some do it because they just have sooooo many boxes. Some do it because they are clearing the decks so to speak. Some do it to help newer breeders and some of course do it for a quick buck and greed.

This has always been so and will always be so. I'm not going to preach on here nor be a hypocrite. I myself have and will again have these cheap sales. My reason ?? My reason is many fold. 1: I think these particular cats are too good to menagerie but I'm just not in a position to breed them. 2: I have too many boxes and they are driving me insane. 3: I'm cutting down on breeding through the summer when we all know the market hits an even lower point than it is now. 4: I can't sell them any other way because the market is so bad. I DON'T do these sales for greed or to break the market or to under cut or under mind other breeders. Your going to say, well why don't you menagerie them ?? Believe me I do, my 5 menagerie kitties are proof of that and I'm half way to my 6th (only been breeding 1 yr 4 months). I just know how hard the market is at the moment, how breeders are struggling and if one of my "cheap as chips" kitties can benefit another breeder, then that makes me feel good. And before you say it, yes I also give cats away. I have to a few people and there's a particular little lady I have recently sent Toys and Teacups too because I just can't breed them and they are too cute to menagerie.

So back to my main point now that I've waffled a bit. These posts are great for seeing people's opinions (among other things) BUT these sales will ALWAYS be, it's part of the "Business" side of KC (Like supermarkets and Pound Stores) For every large business, there will always be a little guy on the corner with his peddler, selling the same thing for cheaper. It's the way the world works, KC, SL and RL.

Blessed be all and don't forget, KC is meant to be fun

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

Hey there!

I wanted to chime in on the issue of cats being worthless after the traits are no longer new or in high demand. It's true that when a new trait comes out it sells high for a time then naturally drops as the market becomes saturated with that trait. To me, that doesn't mean the cat is now worthless. It just means it's a cat I no longer try to sell.

When Aby Dark Chocolate first came out I lusted after it because I thought it was so beautiful. Then I wanted to put Dry Olive eyes on that fur and so started breeding for it. I'm far from a quick breeder however. I have a limit on how many breeding cats I can have at one time and I'm hesitant to sell, pick up, or menagerie the producing pair until they've aged out. So by the time I have what I was breeding for, the market is usually already overrun because everyone else seems to like the same things I do

As for really older traits I tend to hoard them as much as I can. I open boxes now and then depending on what I feel like breeding. I'm having fun just making different combos of furs and eyes etc. To be fair, I really don't care if I sell any kitties or not. If I do, good for me, I get new hair. If not, it's ok... I'll be out of style for a while.

But I'm rambling, what I really wanted to say is that when people are new to KittyCatS, they often look over all the furs, eyes, etc and want to find the ones they like. I've talked to a few in IMs and dug through my boxes to find and old fur or eye or a certain combo of traits for someone. It makes me really happy if I have just what they were looking for. No, it doesn't happen every day, but it does happen. Many new breeders are more interested in what they think is cute, then what is more recessive or new.

I also want to share some very good advice Draco and Theo gave me when I was new. That is to set a budget of what you can pay into breeding your cats and stick to it. Never count on selling cats to make ends meet. Following that advice has allowed me to breed mostly stress free, except for when I get a really stubborn starter lol. At the time I was talking to them about this, I was in over my head and I did have to thin the herd and it was hard. And I did sell some good cats really cheap to get them bought quickly, and also pass some to friends that could use them.

The market is what it is, I agree. There are different kinds of breeders and that's OK. Some people like me hoard boxes, some want to sell them. During the summer I go into buying mode and feed my hoarding addiction, where some want to spring clean the cattery.

I don't think "fire sales" will ever do permanent damage to the market. Depending on what kind of cat is in the fire sale, it may call into question the pricing of similar cats if that makes sense. Like if you see a 9T Aussie Mist Blue Marble at a 100L, would you pay 10K for one still? But I think that kind of thing would be pretty rare since most people are informed pretty quickly regarding new traits etc. But a more or less average kitty with a few traits at a fire sale won't have much effect on the market but could make some one very happy to have it.

It is good to know though at what point you are selling at a loss and realize you're not actually gaining a profit by selling, just recouping a percentage of your costs.

It's important to understand that a 9T cat is not a rare thing anymore. Trait count alone doesn't make a huge difference in market value, it's the combo of traits plus how new, how recessive, etc. for most buyers. I see a lot of new breeders asking "how much is a 9T cat worth?" without giving any other info. And it's all so subjective, I've paid a lot for a cat just because it was really cute and no other reason.

But I am probably not a good person to even offer advice about selling cats. I'm a little bit crazy, I talk to my pixel cats, I obsessively hoard boxes and have been known to put a box up for sale at my stall and then TP in an hour later and take it back.

Maybe one of the sellers in our community that operates a self sustaining cattery could make a how to thread one of these days.

[Oselkhandro Resident]

These comments have all been very helpful to me. I am one of those new-to-KittyCatS folks who played with a lot of different furs, eyes, etc just to see what I would like. Whenever I would think I was ready to settle down into a "line", I would see some other fur or eyes that I loved. End result? An overflowing cattery (with a lot of old traits that are beautiful but not "hot" at the moment), and a huge food bill. But I love them all, and every new kitten is a bit of a thrill. I suppose I will need to cull the herd soon, and I suppose I will do it at loss leader prices, just to see them get homes. The marketing truth seems to be that kittens without new, trendy traits will not command a price that recoups one's investment. The market is just too saturated. For some people, it is more about housekeeping than it is about profit making. Breeding kitties is great fun, and many combinations can be beautiful. So, I do not want to feel driven to only breed the new traits. I just bred a pair of Russian Whites with Gerbera Purple eyes...OMG...the kitten is such a pretty kitty! Old traits, yes, but sooo gorgeous! I salute the people who will sell pretty kitties at good entry-level prices so that we new breeders can experience all the varieties of kitties..what fun it is!!! Thanks to all of you.

[Oselkhandro Resident]

These comments have all been very helpful to me. I am one of those new-to-KittyCatS folks who played with a lot of different furs, eyes, etc just to see what I would like. Whenever I would think I was ready to settle down into a "line", I would see some other fur or eyes that I loved. End result? An overflowing cattery (with a lot of old traits that are beautiful but not "hot" at the moment), and a huge food bill. But I love them all, and every new kitten is a bit of a thrill. I suppose I will need to cull the herd soon, and I suppose I will do it at loss leader prices, just to see them get homes. The marketing truth seems to be that kittens without new, trendy traits will not command a price that recoups one's investment. The market is just too saturated. For some people, it is more about housekeeping than it is about profit making. Breeding kitties is great fun, and many combinations can be beautiful. So, I do not want to feel driven to only breed the new traits. I just bred a pair of Russian Whites with Gerbera Purple eyes...OMG...the kitten is such a pretty kitty! Old traits, yes, but sooo gorgeous! I salute the people who will sell pretty kitties at good entry-level prices so that we new breeders can experience all the varieties of kitties..what fun it is!!! Thanks to all of you.

[Icestron Resident]

Thank you for this -- ic could not have said it better, and I totally support the sentiment.

Everyone has their own breeding strategy... Value of a cat is more than 9T - to factor in rarity and recesiveness and newness to the market - all valid comments.

I have been asked in the past -- what do you think this cat is worth? what should i sell it at... the answer is, as things in a freemarket go - is it is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. We all have different breeding strategies, we all have different price points we are prepared to pay / sell our kitties for.

For me - the kitties give me joy. I look forward to seeing what they get up to. I diggem - and as long as they are fun and give me joy, how and what I do with my kitties is my beesewax. yes - somedays i think I'm gonna menagery them all... other days i think i'm gonna sell them all ... somedays it takes me four hours to put out 1 kitty for sale (take out 3 to sell, put two back in lol) ...

but every day ... and in so very many ways ... I dig em.

Not only do I dig them kitties - but I dig the kittyfriends I have made over the last 2 years. Who were so patient with me in the beginning as I learnt about traits - patiently correcting me when i did not understand.

Wow - 2 years already! And still my list of favorite furs and eyes and traits is a long one. lol.

And I totally agree - I would love to see some new things on menagerie and fancie kitties also. That would be soo cool.

(04-22-2015 06:24 PM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  Hey there!

The market is what it is, I agree. There are different kinds of breeders and that's OK. Some people like me hoard boxes, some want to sell them. During the summer I go into buying mode and feed my hoarding addiction, where some want to spring clean the cattery.

I don't think "fire sales" will ever do permanent damage to the market. Depending on what kind of cat is in the fire sale, it may call into question the pricing of similar cats if that makes sense. Like if you see a 9T Aussie Mist Blue Marble at a 100L, would you pay 10K for one still? But I think that kind of thing would be pretty rare since most people are informed pretty quickly regarding new traits etc. But a more or less average kitty with a few traits at a fire sale won't have much effect on the market but could make some one very happy to have it.
...

It's important to understand that a 9T cat is not a rare thing anymore. Trait count alone doesn't make a huge difference in market value, it's the combo of traits plus how new, how recessive, etc. for most buyers. I see a lot of new breeders asking "how much is a 9T cat worth?" without giving any other info. And it's all so subjective, I've paid a lot for a cat just because it was really cute and no other reason.