The Genesis Project

[Ivy Norsk]

Since there's been so much work lately and Arwen has got those 2017 furs whipped into place, here's an updated chart. Aramis has also submitted some proofs directly to the Saga group which haven't made it up to the forum, and I think I myself got a proof (Smokey 4 is recessive to Flame 2) which I forgot to put up here. There is one notable typo on the chart: Smokey 4 < Flame 2 & it should read > (dominant to) Flame 5.

Genesis Furs 6:29:17 by Ivy Norsk, on Flickr

Regarding the 2017 Bandit 2 fur, I don't have it in the Placed column yet as Arwen is still testing/going to test it versus Patch 1.

Kayla, regarding your tests, that all sounds good (and I'm running Flame 5 x Flame 1 now) except that Coco 4 and Flame 3 are both placed with Coco 4 dominant.

I am currently running these tests:
Ginger 1 x Domino 5
Ginger 1 x Coco 3 , because yes please we want the 2016 furs to stack.
Flame 5 x Flame 1 as mentioned above.
I am doing a confirmation test of Smokey 5 x Diamond 5 because ... um, that proof is lost. We do think, I do think, that the listed order will be confirmed with Smokey 5 dominant.
And since I have some of these 5 cats open: I am preparing to run Smokey 5 x Smokey 2, and Diamond 5 x Coco2.

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This is the proof I forgot to upload to the forum. Perhaps because it's a two pedigree proof: one main proof and then a detail to show where one cat's hidden came from.

This is the main proof pedigree:
Smokey 4 < Flame 2 by Ivy Norsk, on Flickr

Analysis: Meese the Bunflower is a Smokey 2 hiding Flame 2 (that's demonstrated in the pedigree below). When Meese is mated with Thumbelina (Smokey 4) they produce an offspring Ellder (showing the Flame 2 - Meese's hidden). When mated with a recessive furred cat (Evita - showing OciCat CinnamonSilver) this pulls Ellder's hidden which is the Smokey 4.

ProofMeeseHidesFlame2 by Ivy Norsk, on Flickr

This just shows beyond a doubt that Meese's shown is Smokey 2 and hidden is Flame 2 as pulled by Leonela the AbyBlkSilver.

[Kayla Woodrunner]

Okay, thanks Ivy.

Because I'm getting confused. I'm going to make a list of the proofs on this thread to help me reclarify after vacation. I am including Ivy's charts as they are snapshots in time of the progress in mapping the Genesis furs.

It is a given all are genesis so I am not typing out Genesis each time except for Genesis Odyssey (due to the number of Odyssey eyes)

Pg 1
Ivy's chart as of 2/16/17
Pearl I dominant to Coco V
List of prior Saga proofs from their update history list
Diamond III dominant to Coco V

Pg 2
Genesis Odyssey II dominant to Earth
Genesis eyes II are dominant to all Genesis eyes I
Ivy's chart as of 5/13/17

Pg 3
Flame III dominant to Smokey IV
Ivy's Chart as of 6/6/17

Pg4
Smokey II dominant to Smokey IV

Pg 5
Ivy's chart as of 6/30/17
Flame II dominant to Smokey IV

Charts proving the lineup of Genesis 2017 II furs within themselves are on the thread
https://kittycats.ws/forum/showthread.php?tid=28833
Lineup is
Ginger II
Mocha II
Pearl II
Patch II
Bandit II

Now, these are the Saga proofs not showing on this list. Since the Update history of Saga on the threads first page ended on April 19th, I will pick up from there. In bold will be anything not ont he forum.
Saga Updates:
May 1/2017 Genesis Furs Genesis Diamond III dominat to Genesis Coco V
Jun 6/2017 Genesis Furs Genesis Coco IV PLACED recessive to Genesis Coco III
Jun 13/2017 Genesis Furs Genesis Pearl dominant Genesis Coco V
Jun 13/2017 Geneis Furs Genesis Diamond IV recessive to Smokey III
Jun 20/2017 Genesis Furs Genesis Smokey IV recessive to Genesis Flame III
Jun 27/2017 Genesis Furs June 27: Genesis 2017 furs in order: Ginger II > Mocha II > Pearl II > Patch II > Bandit II
Jun 29/2017 Genesis Furs Genesis Flame IV recessive to Genesis Smokey II * by default Genesis Smokey IV is also recessive to Genessis Smokey II because Smokey IV is recessive to Flame IV

Ok, I see where I got confused on the Coco IV. Your first chart started with Coco III is dominant to Coco IV on your chart but it is not listed in the update history of Saga so no date. I took previous info on proofs from the Saga history but not before their update history because they instituted quality controls but not from the beginning. So my notes don't include anything not in the update history. There is a Saga update Apr 12 2017 Coco IV dominate Diamond III. So I am assuming time lapse between Apr 12 and announcing the placement on June 6 was looking for the prior chart of Coco III vs Coco IV. Either that or they realized it was placed after you (Ivy) checked on the chart. Any chance they could get permission to post it here? it would feel more complete since it's not listed in the update history. I know early charts were sent as notecards, not images. If that's what they have, that's ok too.

In any case, I'll menagerie the cats Flame III and Coco IV due to the Coco IV dominant to Diamond III proof. And in rechecking the past posts for the proof list, I realize you did tell me before the test was redundent on 6/6/17 but just forgot when I came back from vacation. I guess that's why I put my CocoIV into inventory. I pulled her out cuz Flame III had grown up when I came back. What a waste of kibble. sighs. I am glad you are continuously posting the graphic of your chart, Ivy. It helps a lot.

[Arwen Swordthain]

Genesis - Domino IV is recessive to Genesis - Domino III
since its already known as dominant to Genesis - Flame III I believe this places Domino IV between Domino III and Flame III in the current known order.

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Ivy, if you have a Bandit II boy thats old enough to breed could I borrow him. My Patch girl revealed her hidden eye so will be ready to breed again this week.

(06-27-2017 01:04 AM)Arwen Swordthain Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 06:16 PM)Ivy Norsk Wrote:  I have some Bandit 2s if you want. I was using them for proofs, but since you've already placed it their work is done.

I'll let you know Ivy, if the patch passes her hidden eye on Thursday she'll be ready to use so I'll take you up on it, if she doesn't and I'm going another week I might as well pop the bandit boy and hopes she passes it next week. Unless you have a bandit boy with an eye recessive to Grape Ice in which case I can do a 2fer and get Kaylas chart as well as test Patch and Bandit II.

[Phantom Trommler]

Flame IV is recessive to Coco V.


   

or



not sure why my photo is so small & gyazo just refuses to show but here is the gyazo link as well:

https://gyazo.com/d95e8d056aeb69daa6233feae1e9be61

[Arwen Swordthain]

reposting it for you

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Just a quick update on the tests I have running
no results yet as all will breed for the first time next week but these are what I have running

Domino 3 hiding Domino 4 against a Coco 5
Flame 3 against Diamond 4
Patch 1 against Bandit 2

Also not my test but I had a chat with Kayla and shes running a Flame 3 against a Diamond 5

[Kayla Woodrunner]

I don't know why but the Genesis stuff makes my eyes blurry. As a couple of my tests failed, I am checking what needs to be done. Please correct me if I am wrong

Bolding tests that need to be done. Strike thrus if a proof makes another proof obsolete

Bandit II needs to go against Patch I and that will finish the stack of 2017 against 2016.

Patch I
dominant to Domino V (dom Coco III)
Mocha
Bandit
Pearl
dominant to Coco V
Ginger
dominant to Diamond V

Domino V Needs to be tested against Mocha, Bandit, Pearl and or Ginger?

Domino V is dominant to Coco IV and recessive to Patch I
Domino V is dominant to Coco V
Coco V is recessive to Pearl I and dominant to Flame IV and Diamond III
so Domino V is also dominant to Flame IV/Diamond III
Domino V is dominant to Diamond V.
Diamond V is recessive to Ginger I, Coco IV

Coco III

Coco V needs to be tested against Ginger I, Coco III, Coco IV to be placed?

Coco IV (placed between Coco III and Diamond III)
Diamond III
Smokey III
Domino III
Domino IV recessive to Coco IV, recessive to Domino III, dominant to Flame III (on Saga but not on Saga update history, predates 3/2015. can we get a chart to confirm? Might have to wait until mid August, Breeann is very busy RL til then)

Flame III

So is Domino IV placed between Domino III and Flame III? or did I flip the dom/rec sign on the Saga sheet? sometimes I flip the < > as to which it is

Diamond IV is recessive to Domino IV (recessive to Domino III), recessive to Diamond III,

If Domino IV is between Domino III and Flame III, Diamond IV needs to be tested against Flame III and more recessive.


Flame IV is recessive to Domino IV (recessive Diamond IV/Domino III), rec Coco V, dom to Smokey IV (rec to Flame II)


Flame III
Smokey II
Genesis Coco II
Genesis Diamond II
Genesis Flame II
Smokey IV is recessive to Flame IV (recessive Domino III) recessive Flame II

Genesis Domino II
Genesis Domino I
Genesis Diamond I
Genesis Coco I
Genesis Smokey I
Genesis Flame I

So I should retire?
Flame I (baby against Smokey IV and Coco I but has Tortie hid). Since it is most recessive, I can retire it (after a flame I baby as it's the only one I have)
Coco IV (since it's cute and has tiger ears and tail, I'm putting it against Jade and make a tiger out of it)

My current test are
Coco I vs Smokey IV (chking hid of baby)
Flame III vs Diamond V

If anyone thinks I should put the Flame I or Coco IV against anything, I will. If it turns out the Smokey IV is recessive to the Coco I, i'll put it against the Flame I. I am thinking I should pop a Coco V to against the Coco IV. Does that seem about right?

[Arwen Swordthain]

Domino IV is indeed placed between Domino III and Flame III, the Domino III chart is above but as you rightly pointed out the Flame III was from the Saga charts so not sure if Ivy has seen the chart or not, but since I'm still testing those furs against others getting one later shouldn't prove too difficult.
The forum based charts are updated with current placed furs only, to save confusion they are listed by generation firt with a list of known placed furs underneath, unplaced ones do not feature in the list. Ivys graphic on here covers that nicely.

[LibGwen Resident]

(Updated October 26)

Here is yet another way of visualising what we know. Unfortunately it's not as tidy here as in a format that can use tabs or columns:

none > Gen2Gin > Gen2Moc
Gen2Gin > Gen2Moc > Gen2Pea
Gen2Moc > Gen2Pea > Gen2Pat
Gen2Pea > Gen2Pat > Gen2Ban/Gen1Pat
Gen2Pat > Gen1Pat > Gen1Moc
Gen1Pat > Gen1Moc > Gen1Ban
Gen2Pat > Gen2Ban > Gen1Ban
Gen2Ban/Gen1Moc > Gen1Ban > Gen1Pea
Gen2Moc/Gen1Ban > Gen1Pea > Gen1Gin
Gen1Pea > Gen1Gin > Gen5Dom
Gen1Gin > Gen5Dom > Gen3Co
Gen5Dom > Gen3Co > Gen4Co
Gen3Co > Gen4Co > Gen3Dia
Gen4Co > Gen3Dia > Gen3Sm
Gen3Dia > Gen3Sm > Gen3Dom
Gen3Sm > Gen3Dom > Gen4Dom
Gen3Dom > Gen4Dom > Gen3Fl
Gen4Dom > Gen3Fl > Gen2Sm/Gen5Co
Gen3Fl > Gen2Sm > Gen2Co/Gen4Dia
Gen2Sm > Gen2Co > Gen2Dia/Gen5Sm
Gen2Co > Gen2Dia > Gen2Fl
Gen2Dia > Gen2Fl > Gen2Dom
Gen2Fl > Gen2Dom > Gen1Dom/Gen4Fl
Gen2Dom > Gen1Dom > Gen1Dia
Gen1Dom > Gen1Dia > Gen1Co
Gen1Dia > Gen1Co > Gen4Sm
Gen3Fl > Gen5Co > Gen4Dia
Gen2Sm/Gen5Co > Gen4Dia > Gen5Sm
Gen2Co/Gen4Dia > Gen5Sm > Gen5Dia
Gen2Dom/Gen4Dia > Gen4Fl > Gen5Dia
Gen4Fl/Gen5Sm > Gen5Dia > Gen4Sm
Gen1Co/Gen5Dia > Gen4Sm > Gen1Sm
Gen4Sm > Gen1Sm > Gen1Fl
Gen1Sm > Gen1Fl > Gen5Fl
Gen1Fl > Gen5Fl > only non-Gen

Each fur is in the lowest position it could possibly go. If it's discovered that it's dominant to something higher up, it moves up.

Ones of particular interest:
- Most of the work that remains is a question of how various 4s and 5s place against 2s and 1s. (5Co, 4Dia, 5Sm, 4Fl, 5Dia versus 2Sm, 2Co, 2Dia, 2Fl, 2Dom, 1Dom, 1Dia, 1Co)
- Determining that 5Dia is dominant to something above 4Sm will move all the other unplaced 4s and 5s up the chart.
- Determining that 5Co is recessive to something below 3Fl will narrow the possibilities of all the unplaced 4s and 5s.
- While it is likely 2Ban is dominant to 1Pat, 2Ban has not yet been proven dominant to 1Pat or 1Moc.

[Ivy Norsk]

I have been up and down and looked at old files that I have via Bree and I can't find a Domino 4 versus Flame 3 proof.
I hope it exists and I just don't have it. I also found an old Domino 3 versus Flame 3 proof and I'm hoping that somebody at Saga didn't just make a typo and record it as a 4.

All of these different lists bend my mind, but it just goes to show that we each have our own way of visualizing the information. I worked some yesterday on updating my graphic, but I think I'm still missing a proof or two.

Edit to add: Regarding Coco 3 x Coco 4 that was indeed an old proof that was lost/missing. I ran those cats to try to reproduce the test results, and so did Bree and a new person at the Saga site, Uxorious. They got the proof. It's probably not in the group notices any more but Bree should have it.

[Arwen Swordthain]

Since I have live Dominos 3 & 4 as well as live Flame 3 I'll get a proof to confirm the Domino 4 dom to Flame 3.
Ivy are there any other charts that were recorded at Saga but are now not available, it might be worth confirming before we go too much further with some of these tests. If we place based on an incorrect placement or typo its going to make a bit of a mess of things.
I'll prioritise the Domino 4/Flame 3 as if its wrong it will impact the gen 5 tests I am doing.