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Saga Felix · 03-07-2012, 05:38 AM

Ok guys, wanted to clear this up:

If you have two cats that both HIDE some special fur, but SNOW something else, and you mate them together - and alas, the kitten shows the parents' SHOWN fur instead of their HIDDEN. -Then that kitten is what we usually refer to as a "dud". -It was meant to be something special - but it is not.

What's worse - some of these kittens are advertised as something they are not. "I am hiding Balinese Seal Lynx!" -just to take a popular example.

So, let's make an example:

A is the SHOWN fur - the DOMINANT fur
b is the HIDDEN fur - the RECESSIVE fur

You take two cats with the genes Ab + Ab, and you mate them. What do you get?

There are 4 possibilities: AA, Ab, bA, bb.

ONLY the bb will SHOW the recessive fur. The rest will not. That makes the chance of getting that recessive fur 25%.

-But, and here comes the POINT of this post: Once you mates Ab + Ab, and you are left with a kitten that SHOWS fur A, what do you have??

You have AA, bA or Ab. (NOT bb - obviously.)
So, 3 options left, and only TWO of these carry the gene for that recessive fur.

CONCLUSION: Since you're left with 3 options where only 2 carry the gene, the chance for the kitten to hide what you're after is 2/3 - around 66%.

DO NOT ADVERTISE THIS KITTEN AS HIDING THAT RECESSIVE FUR!
If you do, You WILL be known for trying to cheat your costumers. You WILL be annoying people. There ARE enough people out there who can see through this, and your reputation WILL be tainted.

-A few courageous people will have the guts to tell you this to your face - but most will just whisper it in the corners, leaving you in ignorant bliss. Don't do this to yourself - believe me, it is not worth it.

You need to advertise this kitten as having a CHANCE of that special fur - and heck, the chance is good! 2 out of 3 - 66%. Doesn't exactly make your kitten worthless.

Ok there - now it's said. More blunt than I normally would, but someone needed to say this out loud... VERY loud. I hope this was loud enough ;-)

Saga

P.S. Ok, maybe a disclaimer is needed: This calculation with percentages is based on the ASSUMPTION that KittyCatS are scripted to work with normal, standard genetics. -Which I believe that we have proven again and again that they do, but it's is not "officially confirmed".
This, however, does not mean that my post may be entirely wrong, it just means that the percentages may be slightly off, but ONLY if KittyCatS are actually scripted to have a higher or lower chance of throwing hidden or shown fur than they "normally" would. -I firmly believe this is not the case, but it is one of those things I'd actually love to have confirmed - not so much for my own sake (Since I am pretty damn sure as it is), but for the sake of those who seem to believe that random is not actually random... ;-)

P.P.S. In the above example I talk about furs - but this obviously also goes for any other traits and eyes. -In case anyone was in doubt Smile

anna Acanthus · (This post was last modified: 03-07-2012 07:42 AM by anna Acanthus.)

AAA-MEN !!!
Thanks Saga it needed to be laid out in the clearest way possible.
Khea's and my conversation in another thread on this subject became so long and complicated in the end and not easy to follow even for us, well for me anyhow Blush

Khea Karas · (This post was last modified: 03-07-2012 10:05 AM by Khea Karas.)

ok so I agree with all this...
and not trying to be argumentative or anything but....

I think people assume that the cat will hide that recessive trait because until recently it was "thought" (I was one of these people) that all hiddens are always more recessive to the shown trait and therefore it MUST have that recessive there in the BG. It was not clear that your hidden can also be the same as the shown - a pure breed.

It will take some time for this to filter through the community, but I support all you say, and politely IMing ppl that they are incorrect and explain why is a good way to start Smile

Kayleigh McMillan · (This post was last modified: 03-07-2012 11:13 AM by Kayleigh McMillan.)

Thank you Saga this was indeed very disturbing to me!
I could not believe people did actually scam on purpose but I was unable to understand why they did this as well.
Perhaps indeed this was because people did not understand this part which to me was just so obvious and this made I did get a negative feeling by such merchant.
I'm glad I understand now this wasn't on purpose but just a misinterpretation of how the genes work.

Liriel Garnet · 03-07-2012, 11:46 AM

Thank you Saga, this was very clear and precise explanation of the way thing work!

Brandon Dawson · 03-07-2012, 11:54 AM

Thank you for giving proper detail about these kind of false advertisements.

Charlotte Calael · 03-07-2012, 01:03 PM

Saga i love you but i feel a little bit offended that you posted this. Mine is a Balinese Seal Lynx hiding. It feels bad when you hint it migth not be and that confuses people. If you would have seen the whole pedigree back to the starter you would know this is 100% Balinese Seal Lynx hiding. Im not wrong. Im sure you said this after what you saw in the pedigree. But people trust you so now you decived people into thinking its some other crazy fur hiding... wich is not true. You know i know how the hidden vs shown works. And also becuse others said it was hidden when it was not 100% sure i should not be the blame of other post about Balinese Seal lynx when it was not me who wrote it wrongly.

Charlotte Calael · 03-07-2012, 01:03 PM

Saga i love you but i feel a little bit offended that you posted this. Mine is a Balinese Seal Lynx hiding. It feels bad when you hint it migth not be and that confuses people. If you would have seen the whole pedigree back to the starter you would know this is 100% Balinese Seal Lynx hiding. Im not wrong. Im sure you said this after what you saw in the pedigree. But people trust you so now you decived people into thinking its some other crazy fur hiding... wich is not true. You know i know how the hidden vs shown works. And also becuse others said it was hidden when it was not 100% sure i should not be the blame of other post about Balinese Seal lynx when it was not me who wrote it wrongly.

Liriel Garnet · (This post was last modified: 03-07-2012 01:38 PM by Liriel Garnet.)

(03-07-2012 01:03 PM)Charlotte Calael Wrote: Saga i love you but i feel a little bit offended that you posted this. Mine is a Balinese Seal Lynx hiding. It feels bad when you hint it migth not be and that confuses people. If you would have seen the whole pedigree back to the starter you would know this is 100% Balinese Seal Lynx hiding. Im not wrong. Im sure you said this after what you saw in the pedigree. But people trust you so now you decived people into thinking its some other crazy fur hiding... wich is not true. You know i know how the hidden vs shown works. And also becuse others said it was hidden when it was not 100% sure i should not be the blame of other post about Balinese Seal lynx when it was not me who wrote it wrongly.

People trust her because she knows what she's doing, and in this case she's right. One time out of four, on average, both parents will pass their shown fur, and in that case both the shown and hidden are the black/silver and it is *not* hiding the lynx.

here are your possibilities for mating two cats showing black/silver and hiding lynx:

Lynx(Lynx) = pure lynx, lynx will show
Black/Silver (Lynx) = hiding lynx, black/silver showing (2 chances of this, since it assumes one parent threw shown, one hidden)
Black/Silver (Black/Silver) = pure black/silver, lynx is *not* hiding

It is that fourth possibility that we are saying is why you cannot guarantee that an offspring of two Black/Silvers both hiding Lynx will absolutely carry the Lynx behind the black/silver UNLESS you've bred it and pulled a lynx box from it. Period.

Charlotte Calael · 03-07-2012, 01:15 PM

I mated a MALE Siamese Blue Hiding Balinese seal Lynx with a FEMALE Abyssinian Black Silver hiding Balinese seal lynx.
IT CANT hide S.BLue!! It got Abyssinian Black Silver fur Moms shown. It cant hide moms shown fur, it cant hide moms hidden fur. It Cant hide dad shown fur. IT 100% hides dads hidden fur. That came from the starter who made both the dad and the mom that also MADE tons of Balinese Seal lynx fur. IT ONLY HIDES BALINESE SEAL LYNX FUR. 100% hiding it. Cant be anything else. Cant hide abyssinian Black silver becuse it does not hide that fur at all on dads side. A FUR CANT JUST PLOP up when its not in the side. AND IT COULD NOT GOTTEN IT AS HIDDEN FROM MOM. It had moms shown = dads hidden.