Silver Whiskers and Natural Shade as traits

[Eleanor8 Resident]

I'd really like to see silver whiskers as a trait - maybe call them Argent or something - posh silver - to differentiate from the genesis silver whiskers. Maybe with slightly shaded darker tips.

And on some furs natural shade is just the best shade of all - Bengals look like velvet with natural, and i have some Black Russians (black whiskers, vampire ears and onyx eyes) and natural gives a black that is just so black (ok - shades of Spinal Tap there - but I'm sure you know what I mean). A friend suggested this could be the Naturelle shade.

Kayla's wish for cream whiskers has come true, so maybe these could be considered for future releases.

[Ivy Norsk]

I agree. It could be nice and useful.

But of course the other alternative is just to push the natural and silver that we have, which could also work. It would represent a cultural shift in the breeding, and it's hard to kill the idea that 9T is best (especially when it often IS best for pulling traits). Still, I'd love to see the gen traits not so disparaged as they are now.

[Tad Carlucci]

EVERY cat ALWAYS has NINE breedable traits (and two non-breedable: gender and size).

Whiskers is the trait.

Silver is a trait value.

That some values not 'counted' by most breeders is a community choice. If you want to count them, count them; if you don't, don't.

[Ivy Norsk]

Methinks that Eleanor is talking about gamesmanship in the Great Game of Traiting Cats to 9T.
Methinks that Tad is talking about strict rules of nomenclature.
Methinks they are both correct.

Except that we do have a community standard as to what we count as 9T and what we don't. And the CSRs repeat it to new breeders in chat.
I can understand that Tad is coming from a desire to use terms consistently which could make it easier to explain to new breeders.
But we can't really count them if you want to "count them and if you don't, don't" without some upheaval. But it's likely Tad was speaking casually off the cuff as a matter of individual attitude rather than making a radical suggestion.
We can however choose to revalue the dominant traits for aesthetic worth.

[JessicaArianaHamby Resident]

Everything you see on a cat is a trait. Even genesis. However, when one says "not a trait" what they are really saying is, it's a genesis trait. AKA, the most dominant trait there is. That is how the breedable community, not just Kittycats, defines what's a "trait" and what is "not". It's what defines the cost of a cat. "how recessive is a trait, thus, how difficult would it be to get".

What I tell friends and family is, who cares about traits! If you, for instance, hate a shade on your cat, then guess what? A 9T is not for you. And there's nothing wrong with that! It doesn't make a cat any less worthy of being loved. It's what YOU the individual likes. For me, when I buy cats, I say one thing. Do I find the cat cute? If I do, I buy. If I don't, I don't buy. I do not worry about traits...

But still, so many people are hung up on the number of T's, when the genesis furs are GORGEOUS. I have genesis cats, many genesis cats, still in boxes. But I will not sell any of them, because I know that people consider them "menagerie food". And for me, I do not feel right selling my gorgeous kitties just to be "menagerie food" . Even though genesis traits are just as stunning as all the others.

[Oselkhandro Resident]

The new Genesis traits are certainly gorgeous. I am sorta sad that these don't "count", because the furs and eyes are wonderful!

[Kayla Woodrunner]

On the Argent,I totally agree with Eleanor, another silver whisker would be nice -- it would be awesome to have lots and lots of different whisker colors. It would, of course, have to be a different shade of silver -- maybe between silver and dusky. Maybe brigther than the current silver. Argent is a really pretty name for a whisker. I'd also like to see Gold, Brass, Steel. Gilt, Tarnish might also be cool names although they are not as neutral. So it would be cool to have a line of metal-named whiskers (even Pewter, Bronze although there are eyes named after that but there are tails and whiskers that have the same names so why not eyes and whiskers?)

I see traits in terms of availability. The more dominant a trait is, the more likely it will show if thrown on a kittybox and the more of them there are. It's like a mass market paperback -- make a lot, it's cheaper. Then the more recessive something is, the harder to get on a kitty box,the rarer it is, the higher the price. Also applies to retired traits that are hard to find in the marketplace. White mysterious whiskers although retired are very very easy to find on the marketplace so it's not rare, so it's cheap. The most recessive in a particular season is high at first due to being rare but as a lot of people start breeding it, it falls in price because it becomes highly available.

I don't like the 9T tyranny though -- it doesn't really rate the dominance of the various traits and makes a lot of people pump out cats with mysterious/small eyes which I happen to hate due to their looking like snake pupils -- no offence, KC. The 9T tyranny also does not rate the cuteness of a cat -- but that is subjective and varies according to a person's taste and experience. The problem with the 9T tyranny to me is that new breeders who go to auctions when they are first starting to learn get it hammered into them and it becomes a self-perpetuating thing. I've noticed people who learned to breed on their own or through the forum for at least 6months to a year before they hit the auctions don't tend to buy into it as much -- although once they start selling cats, even they will tend to make at least a few lines of 9T even if it's with white mysterious whiskers to sell at auctions just so auctioneers can say their cat is a 9T.

You make great cats, Eleanor as do a lot of people who also prefer to breed in the 9T-style. I do understand it makes quite a bit of difference at auction to be able to say 9T and natural is a genesis trait. However, I don't think KC should buy into the 9T thing for shades by creating a shade that is similar to what is available and that people like/want but are afraid to breed because it is a genesis trait the way natural is. The 9T is a contruct that may lose it's popularity one day if another construct becomes popular. For example if an ABC rating was created where an A-cat is a cat with fur, eye color, tail, ears and whisker are all in the top 10% of recessiveness and a Z-cat is they are all in the bottom 10% of recessiveness. However, we do all buy into the 9T for now due to it's popularity to one degree or another. Still, I just don't think KC should -- they have to remain Switzerland, as it were, neutral and above it all. I seriously would like the breeders and buyers to rise up in REVOLUTION and embrace the NATURAL. Pumps fist, lol.

[Tad Carlucci]

My comments earlier were, correctly, interpreted to mean I, too, and a bit disgusted with the whole '9T tyranny' thing.

I do, however, want to clarify Kayla's statement above:

Quote: The more dominant a trait is, the more likely it will show if thrown on a kittybox and the more of them there are.

Dominance has no relationship to the odds. For each parent, the chance that the dominant trait value is passed is exactly equal to the chance the recessive value is passed. Both are exactly 50% (1-in-2).

Nor does dominance dictate rate of appearance in the population: PEOPLE determine that. The reason you see so many highly dominant specimen is, quite simply, people are pack-rats. If EVERYONE would send ALL of the most-dominant values they own to the Menagerie, the trait value COULD be eliminated from the breeding population.

There is ONE condition where dominance CAN have an effect: genetic drift. And there is ONE area of KittyCatS where we can expect this to appear: the fur shown on Confetti Cats non-Confetti offspring. Here, over the coming years, we can expect to see the emergence of one non-Confetti fur as being the ONLY non-Confetti fur. If everyone were to stop purchasing Confetti Starters, which fur would become the only non-Confetti fur in the Confetti population would be random. But, with a continuous stream of Confetti Starters, the players are shifting the odds toward Confetti offspring hiding, mainly, Genesis furs. [Note that the stream of Confetti Starters always ensures there will be SOME non-Genesis furs out there; but, over the coming decades, their rate of appearance will decline.]

[Kayla Woodrunner]

Sorry Tad, I should have said while you have a 50% of either the hidden or shown fur (1 from each parent) being thrown, the most dominant of the 2 received furs will be shown.

It is not the passing chance that makes a dominant more likely to be shown. It is that of two fur received the more dominant fur will be shown so the most dominant furs are more likely to be shown in any breeding. Hope that makes more sense.

I do agree people determine how common something is in a population. The highly dominant traits are often out there (probably cuz they quickly take over a cattery and newer breeders often get them and don't know how to get rid of them) but so are most recessives since people breed for them. Oddly enough, it is the middling traits that are harder to find. Add middling to retired and they are rare. Luckily a minority of breeders like to "preserve" or "collect" retired traits to breed even if they don't sell well.

[Pancake Littlepaws]

Personally I don't understand why some people get so up and arms over traits!. I guess thats not completely true I do understand why some get up in arms over traits. I would assume that some people view Kittycats as a game! Which Technically it is, its a game of chance. We put two cats together and hope the dice roll in our favor. I am sure those people view more recessive traits as more in "demand" more valuable since more factors "luck" have to play into it. Silver whisker can be just as hard to keep on a kitty as a flame whisker but honestly. I can pair a silver to any cat type and have a chance at that silver color. Vs Flame if I dont have another cat wearing flame are better. That trait will never pull.

That being said 9T kitties are so over rated! I have come to figure that out there really not more valuable are desirable its just what we here everywhere! Auctions to Breeders to Everything in between. Honestly its no ones fault its just one of those things that has happened!. Its been repeated and said so much! That people accept it as fact. New people coming in they get bombarded with it then think its fact them selfs. I am lucky as a new person I am very hard headed... I tend to go with my own flow. That included me looking at cats and going yes it has 9 traits and wow its ugly!. I seen so many lovely 2-3-4-5-6-7-8 trait cats out there. Shoot I am one of the few people I know of who honestly likes Genesis cats!. I really do! I own 4 Genesis Mega's that should tell you something. I am looking to add more to my collection!.

What I am trying to say is why while I agree another silver shaded whisker perhaps platinum that is a bit darker are liquid silver!. Perhaps a almost shiny like latex whisker! ((Sorry not the best description but gets what I mean across)) Would be amazing The more the better!... As far as shades go there nothing wrong with normal. I Prefer Porcelain are Normal shade over all others. There nothing wrong with cats using these things!. There traits and there wonderful traits in there own right. There just more common yet rare. Because people shun them!. Those thinking I am crazy here a example of what can be done with undesirable traits!.