Too Confused! About the Special Kitties breeding rules

[Sara Franco]

I'm too confused about how the visible eyes are decided in the St. Patty's special Kitties. Do they get the more dominant from what the Dad and Mom pass as usual? or they get one of them randomly?

Here is the case I have, I hope I will be able to explain it well hehe:

I have this Kitty (Serapis):

? Serapis

? 24 days ? 100% ? 70%

?? 39% ?? 5%

Fur: Siamese - Lilac
Eyes: Beach Blue (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Frisky
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Mysterious)
Size: 47 cm (18.5 inch)

Version: 1.17
Owner: Sara Franco
ID: 11b13e8d-1b83-efa9-b95e-9d4f50fcf6fa
??????????????????????
MOM: Bastet
Fur: Chateau Cat - Cream & White No. 1
Eyes: Changing Leaf (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Mysterious)

DAD: Ra
Fur: Snowshoe - Lilac
Eyes: Beach Blue (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Frisky
Ears: Curious
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Mysterious)

He got the Beach Blue Eyes from the Dad so we are sure his hidden Eyes are from the Mom, Either Changing Leaf or more recessive

and This Mom (Bastet)'s pedigree is:

? Bastet

? 39 days ? 0% ? 88%

? 22% ?? 1%

Fur: Chateau Cat - Cream & White No. 1
Eyes: Changing Leaf (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Mysterious)
Size: 45 cm (17.7 inch)

Version: 1.17
Owner: Sara Franco
ID: 33d94dce-98f7-8b0b-4c7c-54e013093e95
??????????????????????
MOM: Deandra
Fur: Chateau Cat - Cream & White No. 1
Eyes: Changing Leaf (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Illume
Tail: Boo Boo
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: White (Shape: Mysterious)

DAD: Pete Bascalia
Fur: Chateau Cat - Cream & White No. 1
Eyes: Blue Ice (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Mysterious)

So Bastet is probably Hiding Blue Ice or more recessive eyes

Then Serapis mated with another Kitty and got the Lucky Irish Clover Eyes:

? I'm Irish

? 9 days ?? 21% ? 71%

?? 92% ?? 11%

Fur: Snowshoe - Bluepoint
Eyes: Lucky Irish Clover (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big) (The Visible Eyes are Odyssey Dream)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Frisky
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Mysterious)
Size: 48 cm (18.8 inch)

Version: 1.17
Owner: Sara Franco
ID: faee8bbf-ee62-27c0-b00b-cb6b81dae500
??????????????????????
MOM: Isis
Fur: Snowshoe - Bluepoint
Eyes: Odyssey Dream (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: White (Shape: Guitar)

DAD: Serapis
Fur: Siamese - Lilac
Eyes: Beach Blue (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Frisky
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Mysterious)

As you see, The Irish boy got the Visible Eyes from the Mom.

I assumed that the same rules apply for Special Cats, so I thought if the son got Ody. Dream as visible from the Mom then the Dad (Serapis) was hiding a more recessive Eyes therefore his Mom Bastet (he got the hidden eyes from her)

Then Bastet mated today with a Kitty with Ody. Sorbet Eyes and got Blue Ice Eyes Kitten, I dunno what is the Ody. Sorbet Kitty is hiding at all but Is it a coincidence that Bastet's dad had Blue Ice and and she is probably hiding it and The Ody's Sorbet one (not from my Cattery) is hiding the same Blue Ice?

New Born Kitten

Fur: Siamese - Lilac
Eyes: Blue Ice (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: White (Shape: Mysterious)
Size: Normal

Version: 1.17
Owner: Sara Franco
ID: f5106822-48df-a840-3988-be9900420436
??????????????????????
MOM: Bastet
Fur: Chateau Cat - Cream & White No. 1
Eyes: Changing Leaf (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Mysterious)

DAD: Ptah
Fur: Siamese - Lilac
Eyes: Odyssey Sorbet (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: White (Shape: Guitar)

So I started to think about the special kitties rules, We know they get the costume as hidden eyes in the St. Patty's case. But what about the visible eyes? Do they get the more dominant from what the Dad and Mom pass as usual? or they get one of them randomly?

Help is very appreciated

Update: My Ody Sorbet Kitty is hiding Mercury eyes or more recessive eyes

[Sanura Snowpaw]

The Lucky Irish Clover eyes are the hidden & costume eye and from what we have been told it is still following the normal breeding rules in that it will be the more recessive (hiding) of what the shown is so far I have personally seen the Lucky Irish Clover eyes hiding behind Rainbow Prism. So it seems that it will be very recessive.

[Sara Franco]

(03-27-2012 04:30 PM)Sanura Snowpaw Wrote:  The Lucky Irish Clover eyes are the hidden & costume eye and from what we have been told it is still following the normal breeding rules in that it will be the more recessive (hiding) of what the shown is so far I have personally seen the Lucky Irish Clover eyes hiding behind Rainbow Prism. So it seems that it will be very recessive.

And What decided the visible eyes? I mean the Dad and Mom can pass one trait each, What decides if they get the Dad's one or the Mom's one?

[Tad Carlucci]

The clover eye replaced the recessive eye. So if Mom would have given the dominant, she still does; but Dad's recessive is replaced. Or Dad's eye contribution would have been dominant, and Mom's recessive was replaced. Yes, this means it's possible for the clover eye to actually be in the 'recessive' slot but be dominant over the 'dominant' slot .. but the paint job hides that by making the clover the visible trait instead of the dominant trait passed from Mom or Dad.

Let me give an example. Assume the Clover eye is dominant over Platinum. Mom passes Platinum. Dad passes Odyssey Sublime. The kitten should be Platinum hiding Sublime. But it's lucky and instead it's "Platinum hiding Clover, but showing Clover anyway". But, if it had been bred, instead of lucky, it would have been "Clover hiding Platinum". So you breed it to some Platinum and get a series of Clover eyes hiding Platinum. If you breed two of those Clovers, Platinum (by our assumption) pops out proving our assumption correct.

Unfortunately, it's far too early for ANY statement about the true place of Clover in the dominance list. At this point, the only statement which *is* correct is "Clover is recessive to Genesis eyes".

Oh, and I note that if you're upset that your carefully planned cross to Platinum hiding Sublime was ruined when Clover replaced Sublime, file a ticket and they'll remove the Clover gene and paint job and give you your plain-ol' Platinum hiding Sublime.

[Sara Franco]

(03-27-2012 07:16 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  The clover eye replaced the recessive eye. So if Mom would have given the dominant, she still does; but Dad's recessive is replaced. Or Dad's eye contribution would have been dominant, and Mom's recessive was replaced. Yes, this means it's possible for the clover eye to actually be in the 'recessive' slot but be dominant over the 'dominant' slot .. but the paint job hides that by making the clover the visible trait instead of the dominant trait passed from Mom or Dad.

Thank you

[Sanura Snowpaw]

I would guess random like normal breeding.

[anna Acanthus]

Well i guess that logically it has to be recessive to all the eyes at the moment. Simply because it could have shown on a Bellini eye, for example, so it will be a very useful eye to have for pulling. Also a great indicator for the future presence of even more recessive eyes.

[Sanura Snowpaw]

(03-27-2012 07:16 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Unfortunately, it's far too early for ANY statement about the true place of Clover in the dominance list. At this point, the only statement which *is* correct is "Clover is recessive to Genesis eyes".

Actually Equinox was asked and confirmed it they followed the current breeding standards for recessive vrs dominant, therefore I can confirm that the Clover can hide behind Rainbow Prism because I have seen a cat showing the prism that is also hiding the Clover.

In theory because it is following the breeding standard set we could hypotheses that it will be the most recessive eye we currently have.

[Tad Carlucci]

I would hope that the eyes follow the breeding rules, but I'll wait to see it proven that the Clovers were not randomly assigned, as claimed. Until then, I think it wise to NOT infer any ideas about what Clover is, or is not, recessive or dominant over based upon the gene we see "hiding" it when we look at the Pedigree page for the Clover. But you are correct, if they were fully random instead of selectively random (therefore biased against the leading breeders), and the Pedigree page accurately reflects their dominance (which is where we differ in opinion), the only possible location is that they are the new True Recessive in KittyCatS genetics. Thanks for pointing this out: Charm was about to put her spare up for auction but, if you are correct, that would be an exceedingly bad move, so she pulled it back.

[Sara Franco]

(03-28-2012 06:03 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  I would hope that the eyes follow the breeding rules, but I'll wait to see it proven that the Clovers were not randomly assigned, as claimed. Until then, I think it wise to NOT infer any ideas about what Clover is, or is not, recessive or dominant over based upon the gene we see "hiding" it when we look at the Pedigree page for the Clover. But you are correct, if they were fully random instead of selectively random (therefore biased against the leading breeders), and the Pedigree page accurately reflects their dominance (which is where we differ in opinion), the only possible location is that they are the new True Recessive in KittyCatS genetics. Thanks for pointing this out: Charm was about to put her spare up for auction but, if you are correct, that would be an exceedingly bad move, so she pulled it back.

Well I still think it was random, because I think the Dad had Beach Blue/Blue Ice and the Mom for sure had Ody Dream and I got Ody Dream with The Lucky Clover,so I believe both parents passed a trait as usual and one was replaced randomly, can't be sure though.

Anyway I'm breeding my Lucky Clover one with a kitty with a visible Ody Rainbow in few days, so I either get the Ody, Dream visible and then I need to try again or get the Lucky Clover which proves it is more dominant than the Ody Rainbow, or I get the Ody Rainbow and this proves that the Lucky Clover eyes are more recessive.

I will update you when I get the kitten