Kitty pricing!

[Devilness Chant]

This market has never been stable. It's always been the way it is.

I don't even know Fabio. I just know he seems to be the topic of attacks in forums. That's why I checked his shops to see what was going on. I honestly didn't see anything any different than I've seen in other shops.

I am by no means taking sides. I am just stating what I saw. And what I know about the market. And about the fact that the drama should be kept out of public forums. Believe me I gave it a lot of thought before I posted anything because I know it's a sellers death to have a different opinion and not keep your mouth shut. But ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

The market is not going to shrivel up and die. And we're not going to die for it. It is what it's always been. Even if some of the players have changed, other things have not.

I personaly did not think the A B C thing was meant to be insulting. It is true. There are the people that are willing to pay more for traits and it trickles down. Whether the reason is some can afford it or not isn't the point. If there is any insult in it, then it should be me complaining because I'm on the lower end of that list. lol But I don't take it as an insult. I take it as reality.

If my one purchase causes the earth to open up and swallow the entire kitty market, then you have my deepest apology. That was not my intention. I just wanted a nice kitty to further my breeding plan.

I am not going to take the word of ppl I don't know about another person I don't know. Nothing was done to me or anyone I do know that warrants my blacklisting anyone. The one thing that doesn't impress me is that you bring it here.

[TerrorMisu Resident]

Yes, Ruby the "caste system" was outlawed" 60 some yrs ago! ty

[Zarabeth Langer]

[/quote]

Ahh yes! I can't tell you how many nice cats I have given to friends and new people needing to get started. But Im sure countless people out there can! I do believe in helping newcomers to this and i do try to "be the change i wish to see in the world" as is in my tagline. But No, I do not allow market crashing at my auctions or on my sim and anyone who has been to my auctions knows that I haven't the slightest compunction about IM'ing a seller and informing that the start is way too low...they always have the option to either raise it a bit and still be a real bargain, or they may take back their cat or change it. No harm, no foul. They not only understand my reasons, they Appreciate them once they think on it for a minute. And when they sell their cat and get a fair price they are even happier!

But at the end of the day, giving cats to help those starting out, or lending them my good cats to help them make a good foundation, is Not the same as selling an aby dark dry olive for 700L so that those who pay my land fees while i undercut them so bad they cant sell their cats! And thats what it comes down to besides market crashing, its having someone pay me for the privilege of having me undermine the reason they are there...to sell their kitties.
[/quote]

I could not have said this better myself. I have left two sims because of this behavior. I REFUSE to pay someone rent while they actively undermine the whole reason I had rented there in the first place (To sell my cats at a decent price). It hurts the entire community of Kittycats breeders.

[Devilness Chant]

I did forget to add that I found a scotty fold for 200L. I won't be selling them though. I am just going to breed lots and roll around in them!

It's not always about the money. It's about your friends. And yes I do respect the market. Those are the reasons I won't be selling them. But I will be loving my little scotty folds.

[LyricaBlues Resident]

Excuse my not "quoting" the full post. I did not want to take up another 2 pages. And my response is very simple. This is not the subject of "bulling" but of market crashing. But I will take license to address a peripheral issue, since you took license to discuss a car manufacturing plant.

It intrigues me that many pay a sim's land fees on a sim that offers prices so far below market value that the renters cant sell their own cats. I have often wondered why anyone would pay store rent to enable someone to cripple their business? Why would anyone buy a cat for 1k that in the store right next to it sells the exact same for 490L. And if the renters are not noticing, does that make it fair business practice? Caveat Emptor...or just relax and enjoy another cup of KoolAid.

As for "bulling", I cant help but think of how my sim was griefed for the past day or so. The griefer was identified and I am able to make reasonable and clear connection to the source. The griefer is being banned and those who set that griefer against my land will be accountable in the court of public opinion. Read my post signatures, they are there for a reason.

Miss Pretty Poison
The Better MouseTrap...still there ands still growing

[MsMagick Resident]

(04-16-2015 08:01 PM)Devilness Chant Wrote:  This market has never been stable. It's always been the way it is.

I don't even know Fabio. I just know he seems to be the topic of attacks in forums. That's why I checked his shops to see what was going on. I honestly didn't see anything any different than I've seen in other shops.

I am by no means taking sides. I am just stating what I saw. And what I know about the market. And about the fact that the drama should be kept out of public forums. Believe me I gave it a lot of thought before I posted anything because I know it's a sellers death to have a different opinion and not keep your mouth shut. But ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

The market is not going to shrivel up and die. And we're not going to die for it. It is what it's always been. Even if some of the players have changed, other things have not.

I personaly did not think the A B C thing was meant to be insulting. It is true. There are the people that are willing to pay more for traits and it trickles down. Whether the reason is some can afford it or not isn't the point. If there is any insult in it, then it should be me complaining because I'm on the lower end of that list. lol But I don't take it as an insult. I take it as reality.

If my one purchase causes the earth to open up and swallow the entire kitty market, then you have my deepest apology. That was not my intention. I just wanted a nice kitty to further my breeding plan.

I am not going to take the word of ppl I don't know about another person I don't know. Nothing was done to me or anyone I do know that warrants my blacklisting anyone. The one thing that doesn't impress me is that you bring it here.

I entirely agree.

RE: The ABC listing, if people want to be insulted by something, they can always find a reason. What he was doing is just like using x, y and z in a mathematical formula. I'm not insulted regardless of whether I am A, G, J or Z.

So much of what people are complaining about is just business as usual, and you would see it on any SIM or in any market. They are just choosing to target one person - and whether they are jealous or just nervous about what is going on with pricing - no one person, even one who apparently described himself as a god, could destroy the market.

What does bother me is the fact that some people are enjoying being so arrogant and hateful.

---

(04-16-2015 03:06 PM)alansaqui Resident Wrote:  I'm seeing all amounts that are pulling to get the price of a box, but are forgetting something very important (well at least it's important for people who are serious about what to breed and make your own cat) is the cost of time it takes to breed a cat, the time it takes to make your own line, the time it takes to enhance a cat, this is not just one week, this is many weeks, even months to finish a project until the final result, and that's plenty of food and open very many boxes, it is for that reason that the final cost of a cat out of a project may never be L$ 140, even L$ 700.

*nods* Our time is worth money, but I accepted soon after getting on SL that there is nothing I could do here - or at least that I would want to do here - that would give a return equal to what my time is worth in RL. It is likely that if that were factored in, for any of us, most cats would be so expensive that no one would buy them.

[Wendi Lavendel]

MsMagick - I loved your post on the math bits and thought it was really informative!

(04-16-2015 05:54 PM)fabioazevedo Oh Wrote:  Second, as many have already spoken, the market has changed, and increased in size, and sighs on market four years ago does not change the current market. Since KC did firestorm kitten and opened the market to many others. Nothing is as before.

Just for informational purposes because it does seem to pertain to some parts of the ongoing discussion, the Firestorm kitties were not the first thing KittyCatS did to bring in new breeders: they've been at several events that have brought in new KittyCatS community members: A number of RFL events. Annual Second Life birthday celebrations. They once had KittyCatS at Collabor88, a very popular, monthly shopping event that has nothing to do with breedables. The Project FUR Japan event (there were number of well-known content creators selling and showcasing their creations that are now also well-known KittyCatS breeders). I'm sure others will remember some I'm forgetting.

Anyway, the point (perhaps a minor one in the context of the whole discussion) is that the Firestorm Kitty did not change or affect the market any more than any of the other things that brought in new breeders/buyers/sellers in the past. The market was not one size until the Firestorm Kitty came out - it has grown in size since its inception. Each event brings new people. In fact, the KittyCatS market has actually been constant in the way that it changes: The changes are the same - growth (new people, new stuff), trait prices dropping as they become more ubiquitous, etc. KittyCatS has become more popular and more prolific, which is a benefit to us all because there are more breeders, buyers, and sellers. Thankfully KittyCatS constantly gives us new traits and special kitties (e.g. fancies, tigers) to keep the market fresh as it grows.

Anyway, let's keep the conversation civil - Speaking generally to all without any specific points about anyone or any event in particular, it seems like there is some agreement on what is being said by most:

• The market fluctuates normally and consistently; even when some people over-price or under-price cats, it's not going to have that great an effect on the market as a whole, in the long run.
• KittyCatS is smart and knows what they're doing
• The number of people that are greedy and the number of people that are generous seems to balance out
• People are going to price/buy/sell whatever they choose regardless of what other people else do or say
• Breeders/sellers with an apparent/alleged history of trustworthiness and fairness will be appreciated by those to whom this matters
• Breeders/sellers with an apparent/alleged history of deceit and disreputable behaviour will be avoided by those to whom this matters
  

That's kind of what I gathered; please feel free to disagree in a constructive manner without pointing fingers at people.

This is an interesting discussion and includes some points and ideas not mentioned in previous discussions on the same topic, but I fear that it's getting too heated and might be shut down at some point soon. I hope we can be civil and keep it going in a polite and formative tone so that in another year when someone asks the same questions, we can point them to this informative thread.

[Arwen Swordthain]

(04-16-2015 12:19 PM)Nektuu Wytchwood Wrote:  I was told to post again, LOL.

Who keeps telling you to post?

[Icestron Resident]

yep. totally agree with this post.

(04-16-2015 06:36 AM)Nektuu Wytchwood Wrote:  To make myself clear:-

Total: 382 Cats (? 188 ? 194) | 3913 Boxes (? 1936 ? 1977)

I menagerie freely. If you people have negative feelings about this ask Callie and she will explain to you that the menagerie is cat's heaven where every kitty has an awesome time, food, play and friends.

I love going for my next menagerie tiger.

& If I give freebies it will be 1 of the 2. My dear friends that are hardcore community members and spend a lot of money on kittycats monthly or I give intentionally cats to friends that had no experience and knowledge of kittycats, advertising the kittycats and hoping to make an opening for more people to join in, even if casually, it is a plus.

However if someone happens to retire from kittycats and wants to donate his kitties to a friend it is an one off thing.

I have no regrets, I spent millions of lindens in kittycats and honestly I am not bothered much by all this, the market will adjust.

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

OK, I see now that the undercurrent of this thread is or has become more about undercutting than pricing in general.

I feel there is a courtesy involved in this but there is no black and white answer.

When I found a new trait around the same time someone else did, I chose to IM them and ask what their price range was. I explained that I was breeding it out as well and was about ready to sell a few boxes and I didn't want my pricing to be too much over or under theirs. That was my choice for two reasons, first as a courtesy to let them know I would be selling and also to not drastically undercut their price thus prematurely lowering the value in the eyes of the buyers. Most of the time though, when I've had a new trait I've sold at auction and through a few buyers just IMing me.

One thing I learned about breeding out a new trait is this: if you're one of the first to find it, you have to learn when to let go. What I believe now and what I wish I had understood then, is it's ok to move on to something else once the "premium" market is saturated. In fact I think now that is the wisest thing to do. Let's say today you bought an Aussie Blue with Scotty Folds from me for 75K. Then a few weeks later, as you're hoping to get a box to breed back with you see I have another for sale at 50K. Bummer, but at least you've got a headstart on whoever buys that one. So your box is the wrong sex and as you finally get one that you can use you see I have a few more boxes out at 20K each. See where this is going? The price the trait sells for will drop naturally, it always has, always will. But since it's "me" dropping it, you may just feel a bit slighted since you so recently coughed up 75K for something you've yet to make a dime from.

I was also harshly chastised by a few people when I put up a really great cat with the new trait up at an auction with an open bid. Now the cat sold for around 40k, but even so, a few people were outraged by the opening bid. I chose to do an open bid because I knew there was still a lot of interest in the trait. I'd been receiving IMs asking to buy and I knew the range the trait was selling for. The open bid created a lot of interest. Sure, there was still a slight risk that the interested buyers wouldn't show up or decide not to bid for some reason, but I was fairly confident. So you see at least at auction I feel if you've done your homework and you've kept your finger on the pulse of the market, a lower opening bid can work well. It's also a good reason why we shouldn't take the amount that a certain trait sold for at one auction as the new "set value" for it. Sheet can happen, people don't show, RL can take a bite out of their pixel budgets. We need to take it with a healthy dose of discernment when we hear "that sold for 76k at auction three days ago". I know a few auctioneers will hate me for saying so, but bidwars happen because of excitement and ego more than the "actual resale value" of a trait.

I'd also like to state that sometimes it's just a really beautiful cat that starts bidwars and sells for outrageous sums. I saw one with no new or "most recessive" traits fetch over 80K. And many others sell on "looks alone" for very respectable sums. So I really think though we all love new traits, we also put too much emphasis on them in the short term and forget them too quickly in the long term.

Auctions for the most part generate good sale prices I think. I also love to buy at auctions, even if I could wander through shops and find pretty much the same thing for less, I'd rather not. I'm happy to pay a bit more so I don't have to.

That being said, I fully support auctioneers being able to set their own rules. They know their audience and sellers would be wise to listen. I remember asking an auctioneer if I should put up a cat with a certain fur again since I had already sold several over the past few weeks at the auction. I followed their advice and am glad I did. It's wise to ask a good auctioneer, but remember, they can't read minds and despite what we may think, they aren't superheros that can always get top dollar for your cat.

Like Wendi, I also tend to be a loyalty buyer. I love seeing new breeders and am excited to see what they offer. I do not hesitate to buy from them unless something has made me uneasy. I trust my gut. Now there are hundreds of awesome people I've never bought from cuz if I did I'd be broke! I can't buy a kitteh from everyone I'd like to. So please don't think I haven't bought from you cuz I think you're a bad person or something, but to be honest I do avoid people and places in general where I feel, see, or hear stuff I don't like. Don't you? I mean if you go out to eat and the food is awful and the waiter is rude, how likely is it that you'd go back? I wonder how things would change if there was a yelp for kitty sellers? O.o


Let me see, have I ranted enough yet? Hmmm... I guess I'll shut up now and go off to my corner to hiss and fluff a bit. I hope my rambling thoughts make sense.