The 9T for 100L "bargain"

[LyricaBlues Resident]

That is sooo funny! I actually had one guy get mad at me for not trading a 9T Oci Mega with Latte and other great traits in exchange for a 6T Gen fur with MOF...He said i was being difficult LOL. I was like wth???

I think the reason he got mad was disappointment...the day before i sold him a really nice mega at a 'friendly price' and I think he thought I didnt know what it was worth and would make that trade out of ignorance. Poor man...I dont sell my kitties are very high prices, and am happy to pay for the quality I want. But geeeze...I still shake my head and laugh when i think of that guy

(06-07-2014 08:36 PM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  the last straw was someone being upset i wouldn't sell my 8T 2500L retired fur
mega for 500L , they kept saying they didnt want to breed and that was their excuse
for why they thought they should get to buy it for only 500L,
but i knew full well they were taking me for an idiot and that they were just a
vulture looking for a desperate breeder to take advantage of,
then turn around and force it on someone else for the amount i deserved...
how rare megas are i only get one every 50-100 boxes, i dont even want to explain
how much that costs in food but be assured when you see prices tags on
megas for 6k or more its well deserved due to rarity and trait value combined..
and when you see it for under that its due to desperation...

I raised the price on it to 3000L after they said that out of anger.
the last thing i had to sell for cheap was a foxie mega with jade eyes for only 800L!!
this is after it would not sell for weeks at 1500 L, after that i fed my cats and
menaged the last of the ones i could not afford to feed ive gone from over 500 cats
in the beginning of my kittycats breeding hobby to just under 80 about 6 or 7 months
and a whole bunch of mistakes later

So im keeping them all now, will only be keeping one inworld store to "show"
them off at exorbitant prices and to help set an example of actual worth,
its no wonder everyone who's new always asks what to price their cats for,
they are clueless in a washed up market like this,
im treating my cats like designer cats or something to
that effect hoping it will help retain their value by teaching others exactly
what that is, keeping only the good ones and drowning the ugly ones is my
new policy, at least to what suits "my" tastes, some of you might be horrified to see
what kinds of traits i regularly menage without even flinching anymore.

hoping that one day soon more new ppl realize that they should consider
being as stubborn as I am by taking up the practice of
not selling their cats for "peanuts" instead menage menage menage,
or only opening what they can afford to feed, or simply not trying to open too
many cats at a time chasing after traits, and learning to ditch the ones that don't
put out, thats if they can get over all the confusing things about learning how to
breed kittycats properly in the first place,

its not easy to take the reins sometimes, i know in the beginning i was doing the
same thing from sheer inexperience, selling them for very low prices
just to try and feed my cats, i just finished cleaning out over 100 kitties
on the online marketplace i had to sell them all for 100L each and thats the
last time i ever breed that many cats and actually think i can sell them for what they
are worth in a market where my neighbors undercut me every time knowing
they face similar issues, since its a group evil we all seem to lose out hard
from our own desperation,

but now because of this the market is so bad and im forced just to not really have
very many cats and not bother even trying to sell them too often... Luckily for me
though i have other sl businesses to rely on to feed a few select kitties.
And btw i didnt know they did temp increases of menagerie dollars before,
thats a fantastic idea, but sadly i've already had to menage so many many kitties
so little that helps me now, heres to visiting more auctions, which i finally now understand why,
and hoping things get better in the fall...
cuz thats how long y'all gonna have to wait to buy my pretty kitties again...
im off of the kittycats market for now, cept for my dozen or so in my one
showroom store im keeping course

sadly i dont have much time for much else this busy rl summer brings,
but you might still see me a wall flower at an auction or two on my day off,
and thats only if i actually have some extra some rl money to spend on sl.
as supposed to the money id get from kittycats sales like i use too...

---

Agreed...to be honest, I dont sell high and i do have a rule of thumb where i vary only if there is a very new or difficult trait to work with. And sometimes I have been known to make 'breeder's terms' with a buyer if I know them well, or to let a friend use one of my kitties. Its all good. I rather see it get used if i dont have anything ready for it than just hoard it.

I mentioned a 9T Oci mega with great traits in another post. A man got ticked cuz i wouldnt trade it for a 6T Flame III with MOF...seriously? Just because I gave him a great break the other day, he mistook my graciousness for stupidity - a mistake only made once. But my prices are my prices and I will Not go below a certain point without feeling like I am undermining my peer's efforts. Anyone who doesnt like it is free to move on.

(06-08-2014 02:10 AM)Vrem Vaniva Wrote:  Good for you Hathor. Hold that line, set an example. Not many people would see your 3K price for the 8T megapuss as unreasonable. Unaffordable to many, maybe, but certainly not unfair. Not even unaffordable to someone who really wants it and has the sense to save for a desired purchase.

Anyone who makes/sells stuff in SL encounters freebie-seekers daily. I've been wheedled in all kinds of ways ... shockingly at times ("I neeed that dress but I don't have $195 lindens -- will you give it to me? Oh and i don't have time to sit and wait for the lucky chair to call my name, plus I don't remember what the first letter of my name is because i keep changing my name to something illegible.") The cheap-kittie-shark might just be a new breed of freebie-seeker ? Freebie-seekers are often tremendously proud that they don't spend even an RL penny in SL. It's the pride of being successful at ... well, taking. Hang in there and take comfort in the fact that you are contributing. Maybe be a little bit cynical about people who try to bully you into giving up your best for nothin'.

---

To me it seemed racist to presume that "third world" citizens get their kittens dishonestly...She may not have meant it that way, but thats how it reads and it saddened me to think that we can have a discussion without stereotypes being promoted that way...

I have liked seeing all the different minds on this matter, and have gotten soooo many private replies and comments. This may be why the support is mainly private - fear of intimidation or repercussions. It should not be that way. 1000 minds with one thought is really just 1000 minds with 999 not thinking at all. Lets keep the discussion civil and enjoy the thread...which by the way is Not elitist ffs lol

(06-08-2014 05:45 PM)Vrem Vaniva Wrote:  

(06-08-2014 12:12 PM)Dimpz Morane Wrote:  

(06-08-2014 11:31 AM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  I wonder if it's possible that some of the vultures are typically from third world countries where 100 linden is actually good money to them, as to how exactly they obtain their kitties in the first place? It's probably that your guess is as good as mine...just guessing here, and considering that they are probably obtained in illegitimate ways it could be all the more reason to avoid buying from not so well known avies when the price tag is too small.

I find this incredible offensive and racist, in so many ways - my blood is actually boiling!!!

please think before posting such remarks

... hands Dimpz an ice pack to cool the blood ... plays soft music.
I feel you're being too harsh with Hathor. She is trying to find some explanation to account for ... the behavior of tricksters and fraud artists she has encountered. It's easy to be indignant and "holier than thou" if you aren't willing to put yourself in another person's shoes for a moment.

The only thing remotely racist in Hathor's comment is the term "Third World". Not really sure exactly what is meant by that term -- but she only referst to "countries where 100L is a month's salary." -- so -- economic third world, not racial third world ...
You've all see the fly by night skin template pirates and such ... IP theft knows no cultural boundaries, surely. There's no way to pirate a kittycat, yayy. But we have encountered fraudulent trading, so don't be too judgmental of Hathor's observation.
An imperative to Tolerance is built in to the Terms of Service in Second Life. The TOS doesn't go a lot further than that, -- hence, kindness is not required.

[Dimpz Morane]

Vrem don't patronise me and don't dare to tell me that I am adopting a "holier than thou" attitude. I don't need to put myself in a racist person shoes for even one nano second - NO WAY AND NO THANKS!!

I state quite clearly I find her words offensive and racist because they are.

I interpretate her words to mean that all persons from third world countries - cannot be trusted because they are thiefs intent on nothing more than being fraudulent. Which is highly offensive - Kittycats community is made up from people from many different races and cultural backgrounds - how do you think they may view such a statement?

You yourself write you not even sure what she means by her statement and then attempt to justify it UNBELIEVABLE.

If you have anymore more to say on this subject I prefer we take it to private messages.

[Callie Cline]

Hey all, as you continue your discussion, please remember that in text so much can get lost.

We'd love if you take things private if you find you can't keep a respectful tone as per our guidelines. We encourage and support free speech and know many people have strong thoughts on things.

Please refrain from name calling and yes, Iming a person privately for clarification or even asking can do wonders.

Please again, do not call each other names, even if you think you are justified in doing so. With all the languages people speak AND the challenge to be understood and communicate clearly via text, we're already working with some strikes against us.

If you find you can't hold back because you feel upset, sometimes take a break rather than reacting does wonders. Believe us, we speak from experience. It's hard to hold back when you are upset.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

[fabioazevedo Oh]

(06-08-2014 11:31 AM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  I wonder if it's possible that some of the vultures are typically from third world countries where 100 linden is actually good money to them, as to how exactly they obtain their kitties in the first place? It's probably that your guess is as good as mine...just guessing here, and considering that they are probably obtained in illegitimate ways it could be all the more reason to avoid buying from not so well known avies when the price tag is too small.

hey, Hathor. You're so funny. I'm laughing so far. hahah

My name, as of today is: "Vulture, from the third world!"
Fantastic! I loved that name!

I can begin to answer that for you, a vulture bird has its origin in the old world, in more expecificamente, Middle East, Europe. Many gods of Egypt, has a vulture as a symbol.

Well, there is no third world countries, only the old prejudice of the human being, to find superior to others. I grabbed a calculator, this time, and did the calculation, 100 lindens, buy 3 simple breads. Certainly, if you know how to use a calculator, you can make this calculator.

Skills to build beautiful kittens, worthless to manage a business.

I explain, almost daily, in my cattery, like having kittens. Perhaps, you have been my cattery. I leave the invitation open. But it seems that his intelligence goes only find that others achieve their kittens, dishonestly.

I can bring here, more than 10 people who know me for long, and witnessed every step I took, and as I built my kittens. Nothing secret.

Yes! You offended many people. This course! Nobody uses the term "vulture", "third world" and "illegally" in the same sentence, without the purpose of offending.

This seems to me a win!

I can see you, scratching your head and your hair falling when you ask yourself, "how he gets these Kitten?".

A drink to Hathor.

---

(06-08-2014 05:45 PM)Vrem Vaniva Wrote:  

(06-08-2014 12:12 PM)Dimpz Morane Wrote:  

(06-08-2014 11:31 AM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  I wonder if it's possible that some of the vultures are typically from third world countries where 100 linden is actually good money to them, as to how exactly they obtain their kitties in the first place? It's probably that your guess is as good as mine...just guessing here, and considering that they are probably obtained in illegitimate ways it could be all the more reason to avoid buying from not so well known avies when the price tag is too small.

I find this incredible offensive and racist, in so many ways - my blood is actually boiling!!!

please think before posting such remarks

... hands Dimpz an ice pack to cool the blood ... plays soft music.
I feel you're being too harsh with Hathor. She is trying to find some explanation to account for ... the behavior of tricksters and fraud artists she has encountered. It's easy to be indignant and "holier than thou" if you aren't willing to put yourself in another person's shoes for a moment.

The only thing remotely racist in Hathor's comment is the term "Third World". Not really sure exactly what is meant by that term -- but she only referst to "countries where 100L is a month's salary." -- so -- economic third world, not racial third world ...
You've all see the fly by night skin template pirates and such ... IP theft knows no cultural boundaries, surely. There's no way to pirate a kittycat, yayy. But we have encountered fraudulent trading, so don't be too judgmental of Hathor's observation.
An imperative to Tolerance is built in to the Terms of Service in Second Life. The TOS doesn't go a lot further than that, -- hence, kindness is not required.

Vrem, I have been an admirer of your answers. but you was poor in their response this time.
forgive me.

[Ivy Norsk]

My hat is off to Fabio, who answered this with such good humor.

My own thoughts on Hathor's use of the word "vultures" is that it's suggestive of flocks of sinister people swooping down and doing everybody wrong - stealing sales even - with these 100L cats. I think that is just taking things way too personally and also creating a myth of something that I don't really think is happening.

Yes, a general progressive lowering of prices pushes prices down overall.
But as I've been shopping about the grid, and I've seen some of these 100L sales - those cats aren't selling either. I can think of two places that were filled with the 100L boxes and they just sat there. I'd walk past days later and nothing would change.

I still think the issue is one where there is just such a large supply of cats, and that people already have so many cats in their inventories, that they just don't need to buy any cats - unless the traits are new or they are looking for something very particular like an eye.

And remember, every person who sells a box at 100L is losing money. It's not like they're gaining money from doing this.

[anna Acanthus]

Whatever the intentions behind Hathor's remark it's read at face value and at this face value it's highly inflammatory so of course it's offensive to anyone who cares about the human condition in general.
I can say i know Dimpz pretty well by now and anyone else who does will also know that any "holier than thou' attitude has absolutely no place in her personality, quite the opposite in fact.

As for the subject of this thread, i wasn't going to post on it having been through the subject so many times in the last couple of years and i don't think theres really any immediate solution possible.
I do think Ivy's idea is the nearest thing we've come to it but i think that the implementation would also require a re-evaluation of the K$=L$ coefficient so i'm not sure if we wouldn't end up at the same difference.

Personally i don't think i've ever sold or bought a kitty for under 1K except for maybe having grabbed up something useful to my projects from the Love Shacks when in a hurry.
And i've made no secret of the fact that i try to contribute towards the market in general by never dropping my prices below a certain level, and certainly not undercutting on a new recessive.
Call me "Elitist" if you like but it is in fact just logic, i'm part of a market so what is good for that market = good for me = good for that market etc ad inf …

Then again, i'm not rich but i do have a small hobby budget which permits me to maintain a homestead and a small to medium cattery through a few bad months when i can't cover costs.
This however isn't the case for everyone and many who just love their kitties have to get kibble money any way they can.
Those who only got into KCs to make some fast pocket money will soon drop out, especially over summer and we MAY have a pickup around september but that remains to be seen, there are too many factors involved to be able to predict with any accuracy what may happen from year to year.

We also need to rethink the subject of 9Ts.
It is now about 3 years since the first, so just any old 9T won't cut it anymore.
As always, we need to keep improving our stock, get the best we can either shown or hidden in order to be able to command any decent kind of price.
There is also a small market for well-bred older traited cats, especially if the trait combo is very appealing.
These cats are especially invaluable when it comes to breeding out pure, more dominant traiteds, the extreme usefulness of which, to certain fine tuners needs no explaining.
It's all about fine tuning with breeding and always has been.

Just another thing about new true recessives.
Now i know that we all need the excitement of possibly finding the latest and greatest when a new collection comes out, but i think that if each slot was limited to lets say, 2 per year at most ?, then values could hold longer and also we'd of course have more of a chance to develop them.
Ex : Snow Cream did in fact hold up pretty well for a good 3/4 months (which BTW was about the same lasting time that the fabulous Bengal Snow had way back in 2011) but the Siam Tortie didn't have much of a run with Aby Choc so soon after.
The longest run was Ody Bel which appeared sometime early 2012 if i remember rightly and by now we're all sick of seeing it and it was top dog for far too long although it's still an extremely useful indicator of the presence of a new ultra recessive eye.

So please KC team can we slow down on new Ultras ?

[Vrem Vaniva]

(06-08-2014 07:55 PM)fabioazevedo Oh Wrote:  Vrem, I have been an admirer of your answers. but you was poor in their response this time.
forgive me.

I apologize ... I just thought it was unkind to jump on Hathor like that ... but i see it really does hurt people's feelings, talking of 3rd-world countries as if people who lived there were unprincipled, just by definition. I promise I won't use that term except to quote others. Something I love about SL is getting to be friends with people from many countries, speaking many languages. Lol I think that, if you are representing the 3rd world vultures, you're pretty good proof that they get their kitties in thoroughly legitimate ways!! And what I meant about tolerance / kindness in the TOS ... is that yes tolerance (which I take to mean -- acceptance, and even celebration of the many cultures and ways of life represented in SL's worldwide community) is unconditionally required! Kindness is not required and therefore is sadly missing at times.
A famous logical fallacy, and now I can't remember the name of it, but it has to do with lumping people together in groups, ridiculously, and drawing conclusions about them:
*Rice is a school for great poets.
*Joe went to Rice.
*Therefore, Joe is a great poet.
you could make a similar wacky logic thing with the vulture concept.

---

(06-09-2014 01:54 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  Whatever the intentions behind Hathor's remark it's read on face value and on face value it's highly inflammatory so of course it's offensive to anyone who cares about the human condition in general.
I can say i know Dimpz pretty well by now and anyone else who does will also know that any "holier than thou' attitude has absolutely no place in her personality, quite the opposite in fact.

I'm sorry, I don't know Dimpz very well, but unlike you I don't have a whole history of her remembered kindness or tolerance, to fall back on. A bit the contrary in fact, in our few encounters. I didn't think Hathor meant to be racist, is all. But now I do see that her comment hit a nasty nerve. Maybe if you knew Hathor pretty well you would be equally sympathetic and willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I don't know either very well.

[anna Acanthus]

(06-09-2014 02:55 AM)Vrem Vaniva Wrote:  

(06-09-2014 01:54 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  Whatever the intentions behind Hathor's remark it's read on face value and on face value it's highly inflammatory so of course it's offensive to anyone who cares about the human condition in general.
I can say i know Dimpz pretty well by now and anyone else who does will also know that any "holier than thou' attitude has absolutely no place in her personality, quite the opposite in fact.

… Maybe if you knew Hathor pretty well you would be equally sympathetic and willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I don't know either very well.

If you read my post again you'll see that i did qualify by saying " whatever her intentions …" which does in fact imply a certain benefit of the doubt.
I have spoken to her and i know that she is bright and has an eccentric and volatile nature (facts she has also already explained at length in this forum)
However, her remark remains unacceptable, to say the least ; one can not expect tolerance when one chooses to make an intolerant statement of such nature.

[LyricaBlues Resident]

(06-09-2014 01:54 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  As for the subject of this thread, i wasn't going to post on it having been through the subject so many times in the last couple of years and i don't think theres really any immediate solution possible.
I do think Ivy's idea is the nearest thing we've come to it but i think that the implementation would also require a re-evaluation of the K$=L$ coefficient so i'm not sure if we wouldn't end up at the same difference.

Hello! You've said a mouthful! Yes, Ivy's idea is one I had not considered and one worth thinking about. I had to smile when you mentioned having to have been through this subject several times over the last couple of years...but just think - there are new people coming in all the the time that will benefit from what you and others here have said. (Giggles) Actually, its alot like a classroom...Every year I get the same feeling you just expressed, but every year it Is a new group trying to wade through Shakesperean Analysis LOL

Quote:Personally i don't think i've ever sold or bought a kitty for under 1K except for maybe having grabbed up something useful to my projects from the Love Shacks when in a hurry.
And i've made no secret of the fact that i try to contribute towards the market in general by never dropping my prices below a certain level, and certainly not undercutting on a new recessive.
Call me "Elitist" if you like but it is in fact just logic, i'm part of a market so what is good for that market = good for me = good for that market etc ad inf …

Same here...I echo every word above. I tend to think that Good for the Market has to be whats Good for Breeders and Buyers. By sustaining a realistic and fair price margin we insure that progress and updating can take place. I dont think we must or should choose who our choices will affect because they affect All. And that's the main point of this thread - that perhaps more people will look beyond their small pond to see that each stone they cast will result in infinite ripples whether the see them or not.

Quote:Then again, i'm not rich but i do have a small hobby budget which permits me to maintain a homestead and a small to medium cattery through a few bad months when i can't cover costs. This however isn't the case for everyone and many who just love their kitties have to get kibble money any way they can.

This is true both here and RL...Your words put me in mind of the soft hearted people who who have way too many pets in RL because they love them. Unfortunately they too run into the cost factor often and in RL they often resort to breeding and selling but never thought ahead to the fact that those babies also eat...I've pulled countless out of situations like those in the course of rescue/rehoming projects. They never meant harm, but yet their homes were "littered with cats and dogs" they couldnt feed who later ended up in the back of my car.

Quote:We also need to rethink the subject of 9Ts.
It is now about 3 years since the first, so just any old 9T won't cut it anymore. As always, we need to keep improving our stock, get the best we can either shown or hidden in order to be able to command any decent kind of price.There is also a small market for well-bred older traited cats, especially if the trait combo is very appealing.
These cats are especially invaluable when it comes to breeding out pure, more dominant traiteds, the extreme usefulness of which, to certain fine tuners needs no explaining. It's all about fine tuning with breeding and always has been.

THIS is at the heart of the reason I started this thread! And yes, not all 9T are created equal! I have paid several thousand L$ for a low traited kitty and menageried countless 9T ones for this very reason. The higher priced had the traits I needed to develop and update projects. In the end, All who participate in the market as either sellers or buyers benefit as the quality of the offerings is raised with each effort. I still maintain my "classics" because I believe that to move forward we still need the best of our past. Hehehe, I also hold on to some just for the love of them...like my precious coppers.

Quote:Just another thing about new true recessives.
Now i know that we all need the excitement of possibly finding the latest and greatest when a new collection comes out, but i think that if each slot was limited to lets say, 2 per year at most ?, then values could hold longer and also we'd of course have more of a chance to develop them.
Ex : Snow Cream did in fact hold up pretty well for a good 3/4 months (which BTW was about the same lasting time that the fabulous Bengal Snow had way back in 2011) but the Siam Tortie didn't have much of a run with Aby Choc so soon after.
The longest run was Ody Bel which appeared sometime early 2012 if i remember rightly and by now we're all sick of seeing it and it was top dog for far too long although it's still an extremely useful indicator of the presence of a new ultra recessive eye.

So please KC team can we slow down on new Ultras ?

Interesting, I have thought the same and as i watch the prices plummet on such furs as snow creams, black bengals etc, I cant help but think "but those snow creams are Still valuable if nothing else as "toolbox kitties" to help pull the more recessive". I also look at how far from most recessive furs like beng black and oci black are compared to what was expected. As a result, they have lost value in the eyes of many. Still, valuable to me to use as little bridges forward. The Oci black really surprised me. I can't imagine how some felt who paid 15K for a pair whose only merit was the fur and then just a week later saw higher traited for a fraction of the cost. Just an observation...
[/quote]

Anna, Thank You So Much for you well thought out post and the time you took to share it. This is my favorite kind of reply!

[Kayleigh McMillan]

(06-08-2014 11:31 AM)Hathor Xaris Wrote:  I wonder if it's possible that some of the vultures are typically from third world countries where 100 linden is actually good money to them, as to how exactly they obtain their kitties in the first place? It's probably that your guess is as good as mine...just guessing here, and considering that they are probably obtained in illegitimate ways it could be all the more reason to avoid buying from not so well known avies when the price tag is too small.

I was pretty shocked reading this and rather speechless to be honest.
I hope this all is a misunderstanding/ misinterpretation from my part for sure but how it reads it is quite scary.