To Permapet or not to Perma pet.

[Tabby TopHat]

(07-03-2011 11:03 PM)Kyorisa Yven Wrote:  Umm yeah I'm kind of wondering the same thing. KittyCats people are in general really NOT combative and that works here.

It's pretty rude to join a community for like a week or two and then start making angry demands. I mean, many of us have been here for months and are having perfectly civilized discussion that the makers of KittyCats are listening to. They don't have to but they are because this is a great community.

If we start treating them like crap then why should they do things that we want? I sure wouldn't.

There have been a lot of people trying to help you out getting started but angry rants and threats (like burning the KC store) really make it hard to take you seriously. And when you follow up those threats with a demand that the KC people make something free because you say so, it doesn't really lead to discussion. I believe that's called flaming.

Let's treat everyone with respect so we can work together to make KC the best breedable it can be - both for the creators and the customers.

And on the one point I extracted from the post/rant/flame, free perma-pets do hurt the market because if we have one Black Russian with Passion (Mysterious | Small) eyes and Mysterious tail and ears, there's really no point in breeding another vamp kitty at all - we've beat that game. If we can keep EVERY kitty we breed, then over time we will already own everything. There has to be some way to weed out some of those extra kitties that would be sitting in people's inventories.

The idea behind breedable pets is NOT to make money, although it's theoretically possible. It's so that we can have unique and customized pets in SL that we can interact with and form a bond with over time.

I do believe the Perma-Pet kits should be cheaper, but I see where KC was coming from and trust them to evolve the company over time. I won't attack them, even if I have to menagerie kitties I really am emotionally attached to.

Let's all play nice or we may as well be breeding *coughcough*s. Other breedable communities aren't all as friendly. Let's keep KC a nice place to be.

Thank you Kyorisa for keeping the KittyCats forum a positive place to discuss our thoughts, feelings and observations. Everyone on the team appreciates discussion and really does read all the comments made and have taken them into consideration. Thank you to everyone who has continued to show respect and kindness to fellow members and the KittyCats breedable as a whole. We really do appreciate it. :-)

[Callie Cline]

i'll second what tabby says, while adding, we like to hear what you have to say, even if it's written in anger... we do care what people have to say, even if it's delivered in a way that isn't "perfect". (although of course it's easier to hear at times when written very nice)

we as a company, understand that when people are upset or angry they may not say things as they'd hope if they had time to express it when not angry, and it won't keep us from listening.

i don't discount a post or IM even if it's given "disrespectfully" (of if i perceive it that way) i remember once my mentor telling me, "Listen closely to those who are angry or your enemies, for often they will be more truthful to you as they don't feel they have anything to lose and you can often find "truths" in their message, if you sift out the angry parts.

it's hard to do at times LOL, but i've found in my life it to be true.

so to sum it up, thanks for sharing your input on this subject. each of you who have shared. we appreciate you taking time to share your thoughts on this subject.

---

(07-03-2011 11:03 PM)Kyorisa Yven Wrote:  Umm yeah I'm kind of wondering the same thing. KittyCats people are in general really NOT combative and that works here.

It's pretty rude to join a community for like a week or two and then start making angry demands. I mean, many of us have been here for months and are having perfectly civilized discussion that the makers of KittyCats are listening to. They don't have to but they are because this is a great community.

If we start treating them like crap then why should they do things that we want? I sure wouldn't.

There have been a lot of people trying to help you out getting started but angry rants and threats (like burning the KC store) really make it hard to take you seriously. And when you follow up those threats with a demand that the KC people make something free because you say so, it doesn't really lead to discussion. I believe that's called flaming.

Let's treat everyone with respect so we can work together to make KC the best breedable it can be - both for the creators and the customers.

And on the one point I extracted from the post/rant/flame, free perma-pets do hurt the market because if we have one Black Russian with Passion (Mysterious | Small) eyes and Mysterious tail and ears, there's really no point in breeding another vamp kitty at all - we've beat that game. If we can keep EVERY kitty we breed, then over time we will already own everything. There has to be some way to weed out some of those extra kitties that would be sitting in people's inventories.

The idea behind breedable pets is NOT to make money, although it's theoretically possible. It's so that we can have unique and customized pets in SL that we can interact with and form a bond with over time.

I do believe the Perma-Pet kits should be cheaper, but I see where KC was coming from and trust them to evolve the company over time. I won't attack them, even if I have to menagerie kitties I really am emotionally attached to.

Let's all play nice or we may as well be breeding *coughcough*s. Other breedable communities aren't all as friendly. Let's keep KC a nice place to be.

thank you for your post i just want to say, for me personally my goal is to treat others how i want to be treated, i fail a lot, but it's what i aspire to. even if someone is rude, (or i perceive it that way) it won't stop me from doing what i think is right (well except when i react and am rude back )

we understand our pets can get "hiccups" and there are things we will do that some wont like. some will not say a thing, some will tell us kindly, some will just shout, some will not care "how" they tell us. we know that.

we do what we do because we love KittyCatS and we will continue to strive to do the very best no matter what

sure, respect is appreciated, but i think we understand every one is human, we don't know what everyone is going thru or their experiences and when upset, it's often hard to communicate "Nicely". we know that often it really isn't about "us" per se, (if that makes sense)

we try to understand that, and walk that fine line of being "understanding" while not letting certain things disrupt one of the most important things... the whole community

thanks for the kind post and your support

[KittyCatS]

hi all

The pricing for the regular Perma-pet (1800 lindens) is comparable to other non breedable animals around.

Its indeed true that you would pay more in total if you want to perma-pet a "rare" cat, as that "rare" cat would be more expensive.
This is something that doesn't occure ofcourse with a non breedable animal, since there are no such things as "rare" cats, you just buy the type you want.
If something is rare, you will always pay more, that the logic of demand and suply, and many of you enjoy breeding and selling based on this principal.

The pricing for the 120 days perma-pet (1500 lindens) is directly extracted from the normal perma-pet price as follows:
If you would feed your KittyCat for 3 months at Pet food level, it would cost you less then 300 lindens worth of food.
(since a bowl lasts for 2 months if a cat eats at pet food level).
Making the 120 days perma-pet lower then 1500 lindens wouldn't make a lot of sence for that reason.

Its right that many of you will have feeded a cat at breeder food level, however, for that you have gotten additional functionality as well may have sold offspring.
Further we have never really logged all this info, so we are unable to determin what cats have used more food or not.

We also believe that very cheap or free perma-pets would harm the secondary market a lot, since it would get saturated with lots of cats which would stick around forever, since there is no reason at all to "eliminate" a cat that doesn't need food. Making Perma-pets no transfer could eventually be some kind of solution to that, but has other implications. (like loosing a good part of its value...)

Additionally, more from our point of view, would a free perma-pet mean that we are selling non breedable cats for 300 lindens.
I ofcourse understand that you are always looking for the best price you can get, just like i do, but I hope this clarifies some things to you

Regards,
KittyCatS.

[Rocky Balzibo]

I deleted my reply out of major regret for writing it.

[Kyorisa Yven]

(07-04-2011 10:10 AM)KittyCatS Wrote:  We also believe that very cheap or free perma-pets would harm the secondary market a lot, since it would get saturated with lots of cats which would stick around forever, since there is no reason at all to "eliminate" a cat that doesn't need food. Making Perma-pets no transfer could eventually be some kind of solution to that, but has other implications. (like loosing a good part of its value...)

Additionally, more from our point of view, would a free perma-pet mean that we are selling non breedable cats for 300 lindens.

Thanks for replying KittyCatS

I definitely agree that free or extremely cheap perma-pets would hurt the secondary market and I think it's a difficult balance to find.

I think the issue is still that after generations of breeding (and buying cats on the secondary market to get the kitties we want), the cost of a bred out kitty + perma-petting is still much higher than comparable non-breeding cats.

I mean, some of my kitties *ahem*Bluepoints*ahem* I bought for a lot more and the market is coming way down. I'm not going to recover that money. It's okay because I like them and I understand that KC doesn't get money from the secondary market, but it is a factor for breeders. These cats can be quite expensive.

Now, you could say that the cost to perma-pet that kitty isn't a big deal because I already paid a lot - better permapet it than lose it. But the permapet option was illustrated in the beginning as a way for us to open real pet stores - like non-breeding. I'm not sure how practical that idea is right now.

Perhaps we were shooting a bit low on the price because this discussion is evolving, but I think we really need to continue the discussion.

And please don't ever make permapets no-transfer! Then we can't give them as gifts.

[Miriam Mistwallow]

Thank you for offering the perma-pet option. It is the main feature that has made me interested in your animals, as I have no interest in the usual hassle of breedables.

However, the price is rather prohibitive, and I say this as someone who does have a Zooby's Ultimate Cat. A.I.F kittens cost 900L, so not all comparable products are priced as high. The task of finding out about available traits, their meaning to the cat in practice, and then going through the markets to figure out the price range has already consumed hours of my time, and I haven't even reached the point of trying to find the cat I'll eventually want.

I understand that your product is comparable to the non-breedables in features. And they are adorable. But at 1800L (or 1500, if I can get a retired breeder), the pressure is there to find that perfect kitty, which is much harder than with non-breeding animals. If the pack had maybe three charges, or if "refills" were available at some 400-500L a pop, transfer or no-transfer, I'd purchase it in a heartbeat. As it is, I am debating myself whether to pursue this or just get another A.I.F.

Of course, my opinion is biased. But it is there, anyway. I thought this thread could use a non-breeder point of view, however belatedly.

[KittyCat Princess]

Here's another view...

when i went to buy a certain non breedable cat, it was appox. 2800 L. I got to choose from a few furs but that was it. if at that time i knew i could go to a market, look for the EXACT cat i want, with different ears, eyes, tail, fur, eye shape and even a shade and shop around (like I would in RL) til i found the cat that felt like 'mine'. even if i paid, let's say 500L to 1000L (if my budget was to stay within the range of the 2800 "non breeding cat" i'd be VERY EXCITED that i could get an almost unique cat and pay 1800 to have it be a KittyCatS! perma-pet™. my out of pocket would be the same or lower. 2300. or 2800. also. To me i'd like that more than going and seeing 5 choices and getting one of those. but that is just how i see it...

again our Perma-Pet™ is a new feature to breedables in general... so we'll continue to listen to your input.

and thank you Miriam for sharing from a "non breeding" perspective

[Rocky Balzibo]

After having learnt alot more, or quite possibly just not alot more depending on how you look at it, since I wrote my ragey post I will once again try a reply here in a more sensible manner.


For me, that has kittycats to breed just to see what might pop out. Ok I will admit, their cuteness has grown on me a bit! But anyways, here is what I will and will never do when it comes to perma-pets at current prices.

I will never ever perma pet a cat that isnt 120 days old. Reasoning for this is that I think its way expensive, plus I have no outlet for possibly selling the perma-petted cat. So perma petting a cat does not give me anything at all.

Now for a cat that is 120 days old, I will have spent maybe 1250 lindens over its life time (not counting purchasing cost, if i had bought it) in running cost to feed it with food and milk. Again for me, I have no use for the perma petted cat since I dont know what to do with it. Then again if I get a cat that lays golden eggs (or boxes) and miracolously produces kittens that I profit 100 000L on, I might want to perma pet that cat and put it on a pedestal with a sign over its head saying something goofy like "My kittens bought me a moped in real life."

I understand that there is a market for perma pets, be it kittycats or some other brand and there might very well be a few people that does do the perma pet thing and makes a small profit in some way, but I doubt that there is many and the profit margin probarbly is very tiny. There are not millions of SL players that wants or needs a cat in their life. If I'm wrong and there actually is a bunch of people perma petting cats to sell and make money, please correct me.

As for the reasoning that the perma pet kit is in line with other brands of perma pets in SL I really dont buy into. I dont see the relevance. KittyCats could be the market leader in non breedable cats, raising brand awareness of KittyCats and make more people interested in buying a breedable one just to try it out once theyve had their perma pet cat roaming around and fallen in love with it. Other brands that just make a perma-pet kitten wont have the revenue stream from the cat food and milk to get the cat to 120 days that KS has and quite possibly go out of businiess unless they come out with a super perma petted cat that rivals anything else. It might feel harsch thinking that way, that something you do might put others out of businiess, but it happends all the time in real life. In fact, most companies strive for less competition and obviously a monopoly is the golden goose.

With a 120 day old cat you've paid your fair share of money to KC for it already, and for their babies and their babies and so on, so I can totally live with that you have to pay a hefty sum to perma pet a new born kitten so KC still gets the 120 day food and milk revenue or stream (or only non breedable food would of course make it alot less), but for a 120 days old, no and sorry, but no.

And please dont take this as an attack on KS like many did with my last, somewhat hostile, post. But I really think the perma petting system in place is pretty messed up and until I've been proven wrong I will continue to think so and speak my mind if I cant sit on my hands.

Anyways, 7.30am and Im going to bed, If you made it through my ramblings and understood atleast 50% of it I am happy

[Miriam Mistwallow]

Thank you for the response. I do not particularly enjoy the hunt for my perfect kitty - I'm just as happy with "the best" of 5 options, as with "the best" of 5000, as long as "the best" is one I like - but I understand that for someone else it might be the main attraction.

Mainly posting to toss in another possible idea (that I like less than simply lowering the prices or adding charges, for selfish reasons). If you send a perma-petted kitty to the menagerie, you get a perma-pet pack back in return. This would keep a perma-pet kitty a valuable commodity, take advantage of the breeding nature of the product, and encourage the secondary market. Not to mention make it easy for us who think "ok, I'll take this cheap kitty until I find my perfect one" to adopt a kitty, and then when we find that perfect kitty we purchase another pack because we've fallen in love with our "temp". And the breeders would be able to always keep a certain number of favorites for sentimental or show purposes, without having to worry if a certain trait set might be worth the purchase, long-term.

[Hermione Ranger]

(06-07-2011 09:24 PM)Stormrunner Laval Wrote:  Don't get me wrong I want to keep my cats as long as I possibly can. But I wonder if this is worth it.

I only breed casually (I have two breeders and that may change after the next kitten - their second) but otherwise I keep pets.

Now, going by pet food cost I can keep one pet cat fed for 20 months for 1,600L. That is almost 2 years.

The permapet is either 1800 or 1500 depending on if you perma them before 120 days or after.

The sale was nice (I missed it as I didn't get my monthly check until after the fact), but at the current cost I'm more willing to pay for food then a permapet kit for each cat.

Now, if the kits permapet say 3-5 cats it might be worth it.

This may not be a popular opinion but I want to know what all of you think.

I think this is a very popular opinion. I myself cannot afford to permapet my cats when they are old enough. I sell cats (mostly at auction) but I don't get enough money to feed the ones I have and to permapet the ones who are too old. So far I have paid to permapet three but there are more that will come of age and I wish that I could afford to permapet them. The thing is too, that it would be in the kittycats companies best interest to offer the permapet at a cheeper rate because then more people would be permapetting their cats instead of sending them off to managery for which we get 50 kittydollars for per cat. I'd rather have my cat permapetted.