Instructional Breeding Project (Week 7 Info: MEGA!)

[Wendi Lavendel]

I stayed up late to find out what Poppy + Adalbert (the Tawny & White Tabby) had... if the suspense was killing you as much as it was me, I'll relieve you: They gave a Tawny & White! This means Blue Lynx is hiding in this kitten, which means that Balinese Blue Lynx is recessive to Tawny & White Tabby!

Full details in the next couple of days (we're still waiting for 2 more boxes to drop!)...

[Sanura Snowpaw]

So exciting!!

[Wendi Lavendel]

~ Week 6 Kitten Info ~

(This assumes you've been following the project and have already read everything up to Week 5)
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/At...73/189/127

It's Week 6 and it was an interesting week one! We got 3 kitty boxes this week! Let's take a look at each one!

1. We now know the exact position of Balinese Blue Lynx!

? Blue Lynx < TawnyWhiteTabby

Fur: American Shorthair - Tawny & White Tabby
Eyes: Genesis Water (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)
Size: Normal

Parents:

MOM: Poppy
Fur: Genesis - Diamond III
Eyes: Genesis Water (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)

DAD: Adalbert
Fur: American Shorthair - Tawny & White Tabby
Eyes: Odyssey Bellini (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Illume
Tail: Boo Boo
Ears: Vampire
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)

Recall that we put Adalbert with Poppy this week so we could try and figure out where Balinese Blue Lynx fits with Tawny & White Tabby. Up until this point we only knew that it was recessive to Balinese Seal Lynx and recessive to Balinese Flame Lynx. In the middle was Tawny & White Tabby, so we needed to find out if Tawny & White was recessive or dominant to Blue Lynx.

When Poppy and Adalbert were partnered, they produced a Tawny & White Tabby! This means the kitten got his shown fur from Dad/Adalbert, and therefore must have gotten his hidden fur from Mom's/Poppy's hidden fur (he could not have gotten Poppy's show fur, else this box would show Genesis Diamond). This means that Poppy's hidden Balinese Blue Lynx is hiding behind the Tawny & White Tabby fur. Therefore, we can now confirm the exact location of Balinese Blue Lynx:
Balinese Flame Lynx < Balinese Blue Lynx < Tawny & White Tabby < Balinese Seal Lynx

2. This next kitten turned out to be pretty amazing! Recall that we decided to breed the Week2Kitten with a traity cat donated by Charles so we could try and trait up that Balinese Blue Lynx fur. Look at what we got:

? Week6aKitten

Fur: Balinese - Blue Lynx
Eyes: Lucky Irish Clover (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Flair
Tail: Plush
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: White (Shape: Plush)
Size: 17 cm (6.6 inch)

Parents:

MOM: Week2Kitten
Fur: Russian - Black
Eyes: Grape Ice (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Plush
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: White (Shape: Curious)

DAD: Bailey
Fur: Balinese - Cream Lynx
Eyes: Light Wash (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Porcelain
Tail: Boo Boo
Ears: Curious
Whiskers: White (Shape: Plush)

Wow!! We were very lucky and got a nice 8-traited Blue Lynx! The only missing trait is the ears, but we know this kitty is hiding Curious ears or better from the Dad/Baily, so this would be a super nice breeder!!

A good exercise would be to figure out where each of the traits in this kitty come from, and what traits this kitty might be hiding! I'll post the answer at the end!

We couldn't resist opening this box up so we'll decide what to do with him in a couple of weeks.

3. This last box was not as exciting as the first two, but still not bad!

? Week 6B

Fur: Balinese - Blue Lynx
Eyes: Genesis Water (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Plush
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Curious)
Size: Normal

Parents:

MOM: Week4Kitten
Fur: Balinese - Blue Lynx
Eyes: Genesis Water (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Plush
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Curious)

DAD: Week3Kitten
Fur: Russian - Black
Eyes: Grape Ice (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: White (Shape: Guitar)

A nice 5-traited Balinese Blue. She's hiding eyes from Week3Kitten (either Grape Ice, or whatever Week3Kitten got from Dad/Ricky (Gerbera Purple or Lucky Irish Clover). The Mysterious eye shape appeared because both Week4Kitten and Week3Kitten are hiding Mysterious eye shape from their Dad Ricky.

The kitten's Plush tail comes from Mom, and we know that Dad is hiding Big Boo Boo tail or something more recessive from Ricky; Big Boo Boo is more recessive than Plush so this box is hiding the Big Boo Boo tail or something more recessive.

The kitten's shown Mysterious ears could have come from either Mom or Dad. Poppy's hidden ear was Mysterious which means Week3Kitten and Week4Kitten were both hiding their Dad's/Ricky's ear trait (which was either his shown Soft Fold, or his hidden, which is Rounded or better).

The kitten has Curious whiskers, but what whiskers is she hiding? Mom is showing Curious whiskers, so she must be hiding Stubby from Poppy. Dad is showing the genesis Guitar whiskers from Poppy, so his hidden whisker would be either Curious or Frazzled from Ricky.

This means we have these possibilities:

IF Dad hides Curious whiskers and not Frazzled whiskers:

1. Kitten has Mom's shown Curious whiskers and got Dad's hidden Curious whiskers. In this case, it doesn't matter which ended up in the kitten's shown trait and which ended up in the kitten's hidden trait, they're both the same, so the kitten has pure Curious whisker shape.

2. The kitten got Dad's hidden Curious whisker shape and Mom's hidden Stubby whisker shape. In this case, the Stubby is more recessive so it hides behind the Curious: this kitten shows Curious and hides Stubby.

IF Dad hides Frazzled whisker shape instead of Curious:

3. If Dad's hiding Frazzled, then this kitten got the shown Curious whiskers from Mom and is hiding the Frazzled whiskers, since they're more recessive than Curious.

Unfortunately, we can't tell if it's 1, 2, or 3. You'd have to breed this kitty to another kitty with more recessive whiskers than Frazzled/Stubby and see if either the Stubby or Frazzled whiskers come out.

------------------------------------------------------

Next week we're going to breed Week2Kitten with Bailey again and see if we can get another nice Blue Lynx. We'll also breed Week3Kitten and Week4Kitten again and see if we can make another Blue Lynx like the last one they made. We haven't seen any sign of a Shade or Eye Shape from Poppy, so we're going to give her a few more breedings. For this we chose Limerick:

? Limerick
Fur: Ocicat - Ebony Silver
Eyes: Lucky Irish Clover (Mysterious|Small)
Shade: Flair
Tail: Big Boo Boo
Ears: Soft Fold
Whiskers: White (Curious)
Size: Normal

Limerick is a kitty I unboxed to breed with my RFL cats and he happens to be around the same love% as Poppy so we won't have to worry about them being out of sync. Limerick can help us see if Poppy hides a shade or eye shape, but also he can help us breed out more traity Blue Lynxs: He's showing Ocicat Ebony Silver fur which is recessive to Balinese Blue Lynx, so we'll have a 50% chance of Poppy's and Limerick's kittens showing Balinese Blue Lynx. If Limerick looks familiar, that's because his mom and dad are Ricky's siblings

Tune in next week to see what we get!

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Exercise Solution:

This kitty's Balinese Blue Lynx fur comes from Mom: Mom is showing Russian Black but is hiding the hidden fur from Poppy (Balinese Blue Lynx). Dad's Balinese Cream Lynx fur is way more recessive, so it was able to pull out Mom's hidden Balinese Blue Lynx fur.

One interesting thing to note about this kitty is that he has the Lucky Irish Clover eyes. Week2Kitten had Grape Ice (Poppy's hidden eye) and was hiding an eye trait from the Dad Ricky. Recall that Ricky shows Gerbera Purple and we were pretty sure that his hidden eye was Lucky Irish Clover, but it wasn't guaranteed. Well, now we can be sure that Ricky does indeed hide Lucky Irish Clover: Lucky Irish Clover is dominant to Light Wash, so Bailey's Light Wash eye was able to draw out Week2Kitten's hidden Lucky Irish Clover eye. This also means that this kitty hides that pretty Light Wash eye too - that would be a pretty eye to get on this fur!

The Mysterious eye shape appears because Dad is showing Mysterious eyes and Mom is hiding Mysterious eye shape from her Dad/Ricky. The Small pupil appears because both Mom and Dad have Small pupils. Recall that Mysterious eye shape is the only non-genesis eye shape trait at this time, and Small pupil is the only non-genesis pupil size trait at this time, so there's nothing hiding here.

This kitten shows Flair shade. Mom shows Natural (genesis) shade and Dad shows Porcelain. Porcelain is more recessive than Flair, so that means that the Porcelain from Dad was able to draw out Mom's hidden Flair shade (Mom got that Flair from her Dad/Ricky). This also means that this kitty is hiding Porcelain, or something more recessive that Dad/Bailey might be hiding!

The Plush tail this kitten shows comes from Mom. Therefore, this kitten is hiding a tail from Dad. Dad shows Boo Boo tail (more recessive than Plush tail) and could be hiding something more recessive. This means this kitty hides Boo Boo or something more recessive.

The Genesis ears are the only genesis trait showing on this kitty. Mom had the Genesis ears, so this kitty's hidden ears come from Dad/Bailey. This means the kitty is hiding Bailey's shown Curious ears, or whatever ear trait Bailey is hiding.

The White whisker colour could have come from either parent, and therefore the hidden could also have come from either parent. Bailey only shows White whiskers in his pedigree, and remember that we were never sure if Ricky ever hid anything more recessive than White whiskers, so we don't know if Week2Kitten hides anything more recessive than White. You won't know for sure if there's anything hiding in this kitty unless you breed it it out...

This kitty shows Plush whiskers. These are Dad's/Bailey's shown whiskers, which are dominant to Mom's/Week2Kitten's shown Curious whiskers. This means this kitten is either hiding Mom's/Week2Kitten's shown Curious whiskers, or her hidden Stubby whiskers.

[Charles Courtois]

Another excellent week! We never thought when we started this project that we'd be determining the recessiveness of a new fur hehe. This week we did that PLUS got a nice 5-traited Bali Blue and an awesome 8-traited one as well. All in all, a great week!

One thing I would like to comment on is the result of the breeding of Week 2 with Bailey. The main thing with this breeding was that we got the Balinese Blue Lynx fur. Getting an 8-traiter is a very good result, but actually not an overly surprising one.

When you breed a 9-traiter with a 6-traiter hiding the other 3 traits, there's a 1 in 8 chance of getting a 6T, a 3 in 8 chance of getting a 7T, a 3 in 8 chance of getting an 8T, and a 1 in 8 chance of getting a 9T. Since Week 2's fur is Russian Black hiding Balinese Blue Lynx, the odds of getting an 8-traited Bali Blue Lynx is 3 out of 16 (1/2 of 3 out of 8).

Those of you with a certain amount of mathematical knowledge may realize something here. The 1 3 3 1 may look very familiar, because it's the 4th row of that very handy multi-purpose mathematical tool that many of you probably saw in school but forgot about called Pascal's Triangle. In fact, the first 10 rows of Pascal's Triangle give the distribution you get in terms of number of traits when you breed a 9-traiter with a cat showing N traits AND hiding the rest, when you look at row 10-N.

Okay, that may sound a bit scary, but let me explain. If you put 2 9-traiters together, you'll get a 9-traiter back every time. The first row of Pascal's triangle (10-N, where N=9), is 1, which is what we'd expect. If you put an 8T hiding trait 9 with a 9-traiter, there is one way to get an 8-traiter, & one way to get a 9-traiter; row 2 (10-N, where N=8) of Pascal's Triangle is 1 1, as expected. This works all the way down to row 10, which is the case of breeding a cat with 0 traits showing & 9 traits hiding (for example, this could be the case of a starter is hiding Mysterious eye shape, Small pupil, and a shade). In that case, there would be only one way to get a 0T or 9T, but 126 ways to get a 4T or 5T.

I'll paste in the first 10 rows of Pascal's Triangle below for those of you who are interested:

1
1 1
1 2 1
1 3 3 1
1 4 6 4 1
1 5 10 10 5 1
1 6 15 20 15 6 1
1 7 21 35 35 21 7 1
1 8 28 56 70 56 28 8 1
1 9 36 84 126 126 84 36 9 1


For the record, IF YOU HAVE A STARTER HIDING ALL 9 TRAITS (no guarantee of this), and put them with a 9-traiter, the odds are 1 in 512 of getting a 9-traiter back.

[Tad Carlucci]

(07-01-2013 07:42 AM)Charles Courtois Wrote:  For the record, IF YOU HAVE A STARTER HIDING ALL 9 TRAITS (no guarantee of this), and put them with a 9-traiter, the odds are 1 in 512 of getting a 9-traiter back.

Also for the record, your starter cannot hide less than six traits.

So the best-case odds are 1-in-128 and, as Charles said, the worst-case odds are 1-in-512, of pairing a starter with a 9-trait non-starter and getting a 9-trait box.

According to Saga's charts, there are presently 4 Shades which your Genesis Collection starter can hide. All things being equal, this puts the odds of your a non-special-collection starter hiding:

9 traits: 3-in-16
8 traits: 7-in-16
7 traits: 5-in-16
6 traits: 1-in-16
5 to 0 traits: 0

Note that the odds of more traits are somewhat better for special collection starters which may carry a shade.

[Sanura Snowpaw]

Yay so exciting to have a placement for the Bali Blue I can't believe how cute this line is gonna end up being!!

[Wendi Lavendel]

~ Week 7 Kitten Info ~

(This assumes you've been following the project and have already read everything up to Week 6)
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/At...73/189/127

It's Week 7 and the luck just keeps coming! We got three awesome kitties this week!

1. The first kitten is from Poppy and her new partner, Limerick:

? New Born Kitten

Fur: Balinese - Blue Lynx
Eyes: Grape Ice (Curious|Small)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Plush
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Curious)
Size: Normal

Parents:

MOM: Poppy
Fur: Genesis - Diamond III
Eyes: Genesis Water (Curious|Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Guitar)
Size: Normal

DAD: Limerick
Fur: Ocicat - Ebony Silver
Eyes: Lucky Irish Clover (Mysterious|Small)
Shade: Flair
Tail: Big Boo Boo
Ears: Soft Fold
Whiskers: White (Curious)
Size: Normal

Limerick's Ebony Silver fur was able to pull out Poppy's hidden Blue Lynx Fur, and his Lucky Irish Clover eyes brought out Poppy's hidden Grape Ice. We also see that we once again pulled out the Small Pupil shape and Poppy's hidden Plush tail. The Curious whiskers came from Limerick since we know that Poppy is hiding the more recessive Stubby Whisker Shape. Therefore, this kitty is hiding Stubby whiskers.

2. Our second kitten is from breeding Week3 and Week4 together (again). Last week they gave us a 5-traited Blue Lynx; this week they gave us a very nice 7-traited Blue Lynx:

? New Born Kitten

Fur: Balinese - Blue Lynx
Eyes: Grape Ice (Curious|Small)
Shade: Porcelain
Tail: Big Boo Boo
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: White (Guitar)
Size: Normal

Parents:

MOM: Week4Kitten
Fur: Balinese - Blue Lynx
Eyes: Genesis Water (Curious|Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Plush
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: Silver (Curious)
Size: Normal

DAD: Week3Kitten
Fur: Russian - Black
Eyes: Grape Ice (Curious|Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Mysterious
Whiskers: White (Guitar)
Size: Normal

This is a pretty nice kitty! We can see the Blue Lynx fur and the Grape Ice eyes that originally came from Poppy: Both Week4Kitten and Week3Kitten are Russian Black but they were both hiding Poppy's Balinese Blue Lynx fur, so this is another pure Balinese Blue (this kitten got both Mom's hidden Blue Lynx and Dad's hidden Blue Lynx, therefore this kitten has Blue Lynx showing and hiding). Dad shows the Grape Ice eyes and Mom shows the Genesis Water eyes, therefore this kitty's Grape Ice eyes came from Dad, and is hiding Mom's hidden eye (the Gerbera Purple or Lucky Irish Clover from Ricky).

This kitten shows Porcelain shade!! Both Mom and Dad showed Natural (genesis) shade, therefore they must have both been hiding Porcelain (Ricky's hidden shade) and passed it to this kitten (making the Porcelain shade pure).

This kitten's tail is the hidden Big Boo Boo tail from either Mom or Dad (Mom shows Poppy's hidden Plush tail and hides Big Boo Boo from Ricky, which we figured was pure, and Dad shows Poppy's Genesis tail, so he's also hiding the Big Boo Boo tail from Ricky.) Either way, both parents hide the Big Boo Boo tail so this kitten's Big Boo Boo tail must also be pure.

The kitten has Mysterious ears; these could have come from either Mom or Dad, we don't know. That means it's possible that, since Mom and Dad are hiding Ricky's shown Soft Fold or hidden Rounded ears, this kitten might have received one of those as its hidden ear. Of course, it could have received Mom's or Dad's shown Mysterious ears as its hidden ear also (making it pure Mysterious). There's no way to know without breeding.

This kitten's White whiskers could have come from either Mom or Dad: Mom shows Silver (genesis) Whisker Colour but hides a whisker colour from Ricky, and Dad shows and hides White whiskers. If Ricky was hiding any whisker colour other than white, we haven't found out (I've bred him with a black whisker kitty the last couple of weeks and found nothing yet). So even though it's not 100%, we're pretty sure this kitten also has pure White Whisker Colour.

3. We saved the best kitten for last!!

Week2Kitten and Bailey gave us an awesome 8-traited kitty last week, and they didn't disappoint us this week, either! Another nice 8-traited kitty, plus this one's a MEGAPUSS!! Recall that size is not a breedable trait - it's completely random, so it was very lucky that we got this gorgeous, giant kitty!

? New Born Kitten

Fur: Balinese - Blue Lynx
Eyes: Grape Ice (Curious|Small)
Shade: Flair
Tail: Plush
Ears: Curious
Whiskers: White (Plush)
Size: MegaPuss

Parents:

MOM: Week2Kitten
Fur: Russian - Black
Eyes: Grape Ice (Curious|Small)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Plush
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: White (Curious)
Size: Normal

DAD: Bailey
Fur: Balinese - Cream Lynx
Eyes: Light Wash (Mysterious|Small)
Shade: Porcelain
Tail: Boo Boo
Ears: Curious
Whiskers: White (Plush)
Size: Normal

This kitten's fur is Mom's hidden fur - Dad's Balinese Cream Lynx is more recessive than both Russian Black and Balinese Blue Lynx, so we knew this kitten would have one or the other, and luckily we got the Blue Lynx!

This kitten got Mom's Grape Ice eyes so he must be hiding Dad's Light Wash, or whatever Dad's hidden eye trait is. Again, the Small pupil comes out because both parents show Small Pupil shape.

This kitten's Flair shade comes from Mom: Dad is showing Porcelain, which is more recessive, and Mom is showing Natural (genesis) shade. This means Mom is hiding Flair (she would have gotten this from Ricky).

The kitten's Plush tail comes from Mom's shown tail, so he must be hiding Dad's Boo boo, or whatever Dad is hiding.

The kitten's Curious ears come from Dad and we know that Mom is hiding Soft Fold or Round from Ricky, so this kitten must be hiding Soft Fold or Round.

The White whiskers on this kitty are very likely pure... as mentioned earlier, we were pretty sure Ricky had pure White whiskers. The Plush whisker shape comes from Dad, so this kitten is hiding either Mom's shown Curious whiskers, or Mom's hidden Stubby whiskers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next week we're going to keep the partnering the same as this week, plus we'll be finding a partner for that love 8-traited kitty from Week 5. We're also going to unbox the 7-traited Blue Lynx with Porcelain for this week in an effort to add more traits to that fur and shade, and find out if he's hiding Poppy's Stubby whiskers.

We're also going to open up the MegaPuss and let him roam around just for fun If we happen to find him a good partner, then that's a bonus, since he's also a nice 8-traited kitty.

Tune in next week to see if we get anymore fabulous kittehs!!

[Charles Courtois]

Just when I think this group of cats has had a great week, they step it up & have an even better one! When we started this, I was worried we'd have a starter with uninteresting traits, or that we'd have a bunch of weeks of getting one or two traits out, with unsuccessful sibling breeds & uptraits. I guess my worries were unfounded lol.

I think this is a good time to do a bit of a recap, re-examine some of the decisions that were made, & how they got us to this point.

Probably the single most important decision that was made was Wendi's choice of a breeding partner for Poppy for the first few weeks. Ricky was a great choice for a couple of reasons, and to a degree, his value as a partner for Poppy those first few weeks is becoming more evident every week.

First of all, he's a 9-traiter, which not only allowed us to know how many traits Poppy was passing each breeding and how much potential each offspring had, but also hid traits in the kittens that could be brought out in their offspring, as has happened a few times in the last couple of weeks.

Secondly, Ricky was carrying some high-quality, decently recessive traits such as the Ocicat Ebony Silver fur, Lucky Irish Clover eyes, Porcelain shade and Frazzled whiskers. Not only did this allow us to learn a lot about Poppy's hidden traits quickly, it also led to some of those traits showing up in later breedings. Both the Lucky Irish Clover eyes that popped up in week 6 & the Porcelain that showed up this week are examples of this.

Both of the above points should highlight one simple fact; the partner you choose for your starter is key, both in terms of learning what your starter has, and in order to get quality kittens that you can use in your breeding programs.

The other decision I'd like to talk about is the decision we made in week 4 to change from the week 2/ week 3 sibling breed to the week 3/ week 4 sibling breed, and re-assigning week 2 to a quality 9-traiter to up-trait the Balinese Blue fur. That decision has led to producing some amazing Bali Blues in the last 2 weeks, and reinforces the other point I would like to make, one which I have made before; it is important to reassess your plans week by week, and to change things up when there is a real potential benefit. That decision wasn't made quite as quickly as we would have liked lol, but it was a good one, and the change of direction was more than worth the couple of days we lost.

I hope this is helpful. Good luck with your KittyCatS breeding!

[Wendi Lavendel]

(07-07-2013 05:32 PM)Charles Courtois Wrote:  Ricky was a great choice for a couple of reasons, and to a degree, his value as a partner for Poppy those first few weeks is becoming more evident every week.

I agree; I think Ricky and Poppy make awesome partners

[Misa Delight]

This is such a great series Wendi!! Very cool with so much useful info.
I have my own ideas about how kitties pass traits here: http://misa-delight.blogspot.com/p/misas...-work.html
Kitties have special coins that they keep in secret pockets for when they need to flip them and decide on how traits are passed.
My explanation is less scientific