Instructional Breeding Project (Week 7 Info: MEGA!)

[Wendi Lavendel]

(05-27-2013 08:32 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  My thinking is that teaching breeding should be more about teaching to breed effectively and less about all the possible ways things COULD go.
.....
I stand by my recommendation to first proceed under the assumption that the box and it's mother bother hide something recessive to White whisker color.

The learning outcomes for this project were posted in the introduction and were quite clear; I'm not sure how we can rephrase them for you in a different way other than that which is clearly stated?

At work, when I teach my students how to problem solve in various courses, I do this by giving them an actual problem to solve. Going through the problem solving process gives them not just knowledge, but also the skills and experience required in order to solve similar or more complex problems.

Similarly, the goal of this on-going project is to demonstrate how to solve various "problems". Today we're breeding a starter with a cat that we know something about (but not everything - new breeders don't often have access to "perfect" breeding cats, so doing a project with such cats would not be a very valuable learning experience for them). This is one common scenario in which many new breeders find themselves. Next round, we may do the same with a cat showing fewer non-genesis traits, and maybe in the round after that we might take a cat with fur trait X and a cat with eye trait Y & tail trait Z and demonstrate how to get trait X, Y, and Z onto one cat. Who knows... we'll try and tackle various problems that newer breeders often encounter. They already have access to the knowledge (e.g. Saga's charts); this will help them gain the skills and experience needed to solve their own breeding problems, and with hope, make them better breeders so they can develop fabulous lines of cats that the rest of us can admire and enjoy.

Making assumptions is dangerous. There's another recent post (in this or other topic, I can't recall) that mentions certain sellers making and advertising "assumptions" in their cats that can throw off inexperienced breeders. This project will NOT teach people to make such assumptions, as one our goals is to teach people how to determine with CERTAINTY what a cat is hiding. Maybe this will cut back on the number of these assumptions found in the market.

Regardless, let's turn the thread back over to discussing the thoughts and concepts behind the actual process of breeding and leave the discussion about the project logistics behind. If you wish to discuss our project's goals and methodologies further, I suggest you do so in private message or in-world IM to any one of us (or all of us, if you wish), as I feel it doesn't lend anything to those who are following this thread with the purpose of becoming better breeders.

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Reminder to everyone that the next kitty box is due sometime tomorrow! We'll post another entry about the new kitty tomorrow night or Wednesday. Don't forget to visit the site in-world for a tutorial on breeding basics and to review the pedigree of the breeding kitty!
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/At...73/189/127

[Serena Stroikavskoi]

(05-27-2013 04:18 PM)Wendi Lavendel Wrote:  Making assumptions is dangerous. There's another recent post (in this or other topic, I can't recall) that mentions certain sellers making and advertising "assumptions" in their cats that can throw off inexperienced breeders. This project will NOT teach people to make such assumptions, as one our goals is to teach people how to determine with CERTAINTY what a cat is hiding. Maybe this will cut back on the number of these assumptions found in the market.

I personally think this is the #1 reason a lot of new breeders to the community gets frustrated and quit. I agree with you, making assumptions and not understanding the "chances" of what is hiding is frustrating. This is a more realistic approach to understanding and breeding I think on what we are actually seeing in our lines and determining what is hiding (and not possibly hiding) on the offspring's.

[Tabbella Resident]

Absolutely love being able to follow along on this project. I do have one question (well, about 7,000 of them but I'll play it cool, lol). What is "perfect"? I see this sometimes in ads too, as an example... perfect eyes. I *think* this means that both parents had the same recessive eye hidden that was then the shown eye on their new kitten?

[Wendi Lavendel]

(05-27-2013 05:39 PM)Tabbella Resident Wrote:  Absolutely love being able to follow along on this project. I do have one question (well, about 7,000 of them but I'll play it cool, lol). What is "perfect"? I see this sometimes in ads too, as an example... perfect eyes. I *think* this means that both parents had the same recessive eye hidden that was then the shown eye on their new kitten?

Hai Tabbella

Oh, I was just using that as a term to describe a cat where you know exactly what it's hiding.. I'm not sure that term is used by others, it was just the only word I could come up with at that time

"Perfect Eyes" is a term most people use to describe a cat that has Mysterious eye shape and Small pupil (the only known breedable traits for eye shape and pupil size at this time )

If both parents hide the same eye and passed that eye to a kitten as the kitten's shown and hidden eye trait, that's often called a "pure" eye. "Pure" applies to all the breedable traits. There are a few slides about the meaning of "Pure traits" in the tutorial in-world, if you want to check it out - it has a demo with a real pedigree and might be easier than if I gave the full explanation here

Feel free to post the other 6,999 questions, we'd love to answer!

[Charles Courtois]

"Perfect" is a term used with eyes or whiskers, when all of the traits associated with the eyes or whiskers are non-genesis (i.e. "perfect eyes" are a non-gen eye with a Mysterious eye shape and Small pupils, and "perfect whiskers" are a non-Silver whisker colour combined with a non-Guitar whisker shape).

[Tabbella Resident]

Thank you Wendi and Charles for the explanation. Mhmm, I have a lot to learn! I'll be popping in to view the tutorials/slides.

[Sanura Snowpaw]

Perfect does refer to an eye having a none genesis eye color, mysterious Eye shape and small pupil. I have trouble with this term sometimes because I myself most often prefer the eye color, mysterious eye shape and big pupil so that to me is MY "perfect eye" but the terms is often used and very common so I continue to use it.

Pure is when the hidden and shown of a cat are the same. This can also be used incorrectly at times when one assumes that because they bred the same fur together it is "pure" which it may or may not be.

Please do feel free to post your other 6999 questions as well as any others you may think of in the process! I have always said the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

[Winter Phoenix]

(05-27-2013 09:03 PM)Sanura Snowpaw Wrote:  
Perfect does refer to an eye having a none genesis eye color,
mysterious Eye shape and small pupil.
I have trouble with this term sometimes because
I myself most often prefer the eye color,
mysterious eye shape and big pupil
so that to me is MY "perfect eye"

I find the big pupil more aesthetically pleasing myself.
So it blows to find nine trait purists looking down their nose
at a fine looking kitteh, just cus it doesnt 'number up'.
Its kinda like looking across the table
at a romantic candlelit dinner,
and your date has these big dilated pupils.
Its just sexier!

And now we return to the
INSTRUCTIONAL BREEDING PROJECT.

[Wendi Lavendel]

Ironic that the discussion for preference of Big Pupil over Small Pupil should come up Read on!

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~ Week 2 Kitten Info ~

(This assumes you've read the intro notecard/info, checked out Ricky's pedigree notecard, and the Week 1 Kitten info)
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/At...73/189/127

It's Week 2 and we have our second kitten from Poppy and Ricky!

Here are the stats of the new kitty:

? New Born Kitten

Fur: Russian - Black
Eyes: Grape Ice (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Plush
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: White (Shape: Curious)
Size: Normal

MOM: Poppy
Fur: Genesis - Diamond III
Eyes: Genesis Water (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)

DAD: Ricky
Fur: Russian - Black
Eyes: Gerbera Purple (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Flair
Tail: Big Boo Boo
Ears: Soft Fold
Whiskers: White (Shape: Curious)

Wow, we've learned a few more new things about Poppy the Starter Cat and have a couple more new mysteries to solve!

We left out talking about the Plush tail and the White whisker colour, because these were covered in Week 1.

1. Fur.

** Review
Recall that a kitten receives one fur trait from mom (either mom's shown or hidden fur) and one trait from dad (either dad's shown or hidden fur). The more dominant trait will be the kitten's shown fur and the more recessive trait will be the kitten's hidden fur.

I get so excited when this happens!! The kitten is showing Russian Black fur, the same fur as Dad, Ricky!! This means that:

a) The kitten received Dad's/Ricky's shown fur trait and has therefore received Mom's/Poppy's hidden fur trait.
(Recall that if Poppy had passed her shown Genesis Diamond III fur, it would be showing on the kitten because it's more dominant than either of Ricky's shown or hidden furs. If the kitten's Black Russian fur came from Ricky, then the kitten must have gotten her hidden fur trait from mom. Since this can't be Genesis Diamond III, it must be Poppy's unknown hidden fur).

OR

b) Mom/Poppy is hiding Black Russian and passed this hidden trait to the kitten, which would then mean that the kitten is hiding Dad's/Ricky's shown Black Russian fur (making this kitten PURE Black Russian) or is hiding Dad's/Ricky's hidden Ocicat Ebony Silver fur.

We'll be honest: we agreed that if option (b) is true, it would kind of suck LOL We're HOPING option (b) isn't the case, but remember that it's best not to assume anything: It is possible that Poppy is hiding Black Russian fur (Personally, I LOVE Black Russian fur but we're hoping this starter cat is hiding something even more awesome!)

So, what do do with this new information? We discussed a few options:

(Fur is one of the more popular traits people breed for, and in fact, many people will only breed out a cat long enough to find the fur and maybe the eye, and then stop and move on to another project. For this reason, we'll spend a bit more time talking about how to handle the mystery fur. Keep in mind that the concepts here can apply to other traits.)

1. Wait for a boy showing Russian Black fur (and hopefully showing Curious whiskers, see section #4 below) and breed him with this new kitten. If they both hide Mom's/Poppy's hidden fur, there's a 25% chance on each breeding that this fur will come out in their kittens. A kitten from this breeding could have one of the following outcomes:

a) New kitten gets the mom's shown Russian Black fur, and the dad's shown Russian Black fur. A pretty cat, but not very useful: we've lost the hidden mystery fur so we can't learn anything from this cat about the fur. Unless this kitty has revealed other things (e.g. in section #4 we talk about breeding two similar siblings in order to determine more than one mystery trait), then this cat is a "dud". That doesn't mean it's not useful for other things (if it has other nice traits showing/hiding, it might be worth selling or keeping for another project, it not, menagerie it and use it to feed the other kitties or save up for a menagerie cat )

b) New kitten gets mom's shown Russian Black fur, and the dad's hidden mystery fur. This basically gives us a copy of what we already have: a kitten showing Russian Black and hiding the mystery fur. The problem is that this cat will look exactly like the cat in (a); you can't tell if it's hiding the mystery fur, or the Russian Black. I keep these kinds of boxes in case I get desperate, or if they're still nice cats worth keeping/selling. If, after breeding out the mystery fur, I've got everything I want, then I give them away or menagerie them.

c) New kitten gets mom's hidden mystery fur and boy/dad's shown Russian Black fur. This is a copy of case (b), it just got the hidden fur from mom instead of dad, and the shown trait from dad instead of mom.

d) New kitten gets mom's hidden mystery fur and boy/dad's hidden fur. This is the desired outcome, since the dad's hidden fur is also the mystery fur! This would produce a kitten showing and hiding the mystery fur (it would be "pure") and it would no longer be a mystery. Remember though, you only have a 1 in 4 chance of case (d) happening on each breeding.

Remember that it's possible that Poppy is hiding Russian Black Keep this in mind because if this is true, then from boxes case (d) will look like a box from case (a), (b), or (c ) If you try this method and consistently get that shown fur, stop and try another method.

2. Wait for a boy showing Russian Black fur (and hopefully showing Curious whiskers, see section #4 below) and breed him with back with the Mom, Poppy. If Poppy does hide something that isn't Russian Black, then there's a 25% chance with each breeding that they'll give a kitten showing Mom's/Poppy's hidden fur.

The outcomes of this scenario are:

a) New kitten gets mom's shown fur (Genesis Diamond III) and the boy/dad's shown fur (Russian Black). In this case, the more dominant Diamond III fur will show on the new kitten, and we've lost the hidden fur we're trying to find. This cat is a dud.

b) New kitten gets mom's shown fur and the boy/dad's hidden fur. This means the cat would show the more dominant Diamond III fur, however it also means that the mysterious hidden fur is hiding. Unfortunately, this box is going to look exactly the same as the box in case (a) - there won't be any way to tell if the cat is hiding Russian Black or the mystery fur without breeding it.

c) New kitten gets mom's hidden mystery fur and boy/dad's shown Russian Black fur. Well, this would basically be a copy of what we've already got: a Russian Black hiding the mystery fur. You could keep this cat handy in case you need it to pair with other, similar cats in order to get the mystery fur out. Personally, I keep these because if I later discover the hidden mystery fur is something awesome, I might pair these cats with each other to get more of the same fur, particularly if it's something very recessive. For example, when I first got Abyssinian Black/Silver, it was the most recessive fur out there, so the only way to get more faster was to pair all of these "case (c )" cats together.

d) New kitten gets mom's hidden mystery fur and boy/dad's hidden fur. This is the desired outcome, since the dad's hidden fur is also the mystery fur! This would produce a kitten showing and hiding the mystery fur (it would be "pure") and it would no longer be a mystery. Remember though, you only have a 1 in 4 chance of case (d) happening on each breeding, and while you keep the starter cat busy with an offspring, you might lose the opportunity to continue working on discovering other unknown mystery traits.

Again, remember that it's possible that Poppy is hiding Russian Black Keep this in mind because if this is true, then boxes from case (d) and case (c ) will look the same. If you try this method and consistently get that shown fur, stop and try another method.

3. Breed this kitty with a more recessive fur and see what happens. The more recessive fur might push out whatever fur this kitty is hiding. For example, if we choose a Balinese Chocolate Lynx hiding Ocicat Blue, we could have these possible outcomes:

a) new kitten gets Week 2 Kitten's shown Black Russian, and the Chocolate Lynx from the other cat
b) new kitten gets Week 2 Kitten's shown Black Russian, and the Ocicat Blue from the other cat
c) new kitten gets Week 2 Kitten's hidden fur, and the Chocolate Lynx from the other cat
d) new kitten gets Week 2 Kitten's hidden fur, and the Ocicat Blue from the other cat

In cases (a) and (b), the kitten will show the Russian Black and hide the other fur. The Week 2 Kitten's hidden fur is lost to us, and this cat is a "dud".

In cases (c ) and (d), the kitten will show the more dominant of the two furs. Therefore, if the kitten shows Chocolate Lynx or Ocicat Blue, then it's hiding Week 2 Kitten's (= Poppy's) hidden fur trait**, and that this hidden fur is more recessive than the shown fur! We didn't get the fur showing in that case, but we do know more about it's recessiveness and can use this information to pick a more recessive fur to try and pull out the mystery fur. If the kitten shows anything else, then this must be the fur that the Week 2 Kitten (and therefore, her Mom, Poppy) is hiding!

**If you consistently get boxes showing Chocolate Lynx or Ocicat Blue, then it's possible one of these happens to be the mystery fur. You could start the process again using a different cat with different shown/hidden recessive fur traits, to be sure.

4. Breed this kitty with a more recessive *retired* fur (e.g. Balinese Seal Lynx, Bengal Snow, Russian White). There's no way that this new kitty could be hiding any retired fur (it's not possible for Poppy to be hiding one, and there's none in Ricky's pedigree).

This is actually the same as #3, we've just decided to include the option of specifically choosing a more recessive retired fur instead of just any recessive fur. Many breeders prefer this method because you KNOW this retired fur is not an option in the starter cat. In option #3, if your offspring shows Balinese Chocolate Lynx, you might assume this came from the breeder cat, however it's also possible that this is actually the fur that Poppy is hiding, you can't really tell for sure. Using a retired fur eliminates this ambiguity - if you get the retired fur, you KNOW FOR SURE that it didn't come from the starter cat.

Let's call our retired fur partner "Cat R". If Week 2 Kitten and Cat R have an offspring, there are four possible outcomes:
a) new kitten gets Week 2 Kitten's shown trait, and Cat R's shown trait (retired fur)
b) new kitten gets Week 2 Kitten's shown trait, and Cat R's hidden trait (some other unknown, but more recessive fur)
c) new kitten gets Week 2 Kitten's hidden trait, and Cat R's shown trait (retired fur)
d) new kitten gets Week 2 Kitten's hidden trait, and Cat R's hidden trait (some other unknown, but more recessive fur)

In case (a) and (b), the kitten will show Week 2 Kitten's shown Russian Black fur, because it's more dominant than any of the others. A kitten like this won't help us learn anything, and would be considered a dud.

In case (c ), if Cat R's trait is showing, you know the new offspring is hiding that mystery fur and that it's more recessive than Cat R's retired fur. If some other fur is showing, then you've discovered the hidden mystery fur, and that it's more dominant than Cat R's retired fur.

In case (d), if Cat R's hidden fur is showing, it could mean that Week 2 Kitten's hidden mystery fur (aka Mom's/Poppy's hidden fur) is more recessive than the Cat R's hidden fur. Remember, it could also mean that the Cat R's hidden fur is the same as the mystery fur! This is why it's very helpful to know what your breeder cats are hiding. If you don't know what Cat R is hiding, how will you know if this new kitten's fur is mom's hidden or dad's hidden?

We know that for many people it's not always possible to know everything about your breeder cats, especially if you get them from someone else; in fact this is very common! If you're not sure, stop and try another breeder cat who's hidden fur you know (even if you have to sacrifice by switching to a low-traited cat, just to find out the fur!)

If the kitten in case (d) shows anything other fur, then this must be the hidden fur, and thus reveals to us Mom's/Poppy's hidden fur!


2. Eye

Poppy hides Grape Ice eyes!

We can tell because Ricky shows Gerbera Purple and hides Lucky Irish Clover, Grape Ice could not have come from Ricky, so it must have come from Poppy.

What if you didn't know Ricky's hidden eye?

Check Saga's charts (https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B0_Wqb33nVpnZWYwNGViMGMtYWU4ZS00ZjAyLTk4OTctMzk2YzljODliMDhm/edit). What is the order of dominance for Grape Ice and Gerbera Purple?

Grape Ice is dominant to Gerbera Purple, so this confirms even further that Grape Ice could not have come from Ricky because he can't be hiding an eye more dominant than Gerbera Purple.

Note that is it simply a coincidence that Ricky has a purple eye and Poppy hides a purple eye.


3. Pupil Size

Poppy hides Small Pupil Size!

As much as many people love those big pupils, it's still nice to know and put away the knowledge that Poppy is hiding Small Pupils.

There are only two traits for Pupil Size: Small and Big. Therefore, if you ever get any cat that shows a Small Pupil, it means that both parents either show or hide Small Pupil:

Small Pupil is more recessive than Big Pupil; if Poppy was hiding Big Pupil, we'd only get kittens with Big Pupil and never get any with Small Pupil.

NOTE: the same is true with Mysterious (Curious) Eye Shape!

4. Whisker Shape

Another interesting mystery to solve!!

Our kitten shows Curious whiskers. We know Ricky shows Curious whiskers and hides the more recessive Frazzled whiskers. This means one of two things:

a) The kitten received Dad's/Ricky's shown whisker shape trait and has therefore received Mom's/Poppy's hidden whisker shape trait.
(Recall that if Poppy had passed her shown Genesis Guitar whisker shape, it would be showing on the kitten because it's more dominant than either of Ricky's shown or hidden whisker shape traits. If the kitten's Curious whiskers came from Ricky, then the kitten must have gotten her hidden whisker shape trait from mom. Since this can't be Guitar, it must be Poppy's unknown hidden whisker shape).

OR

b) Mom/Poppy is hiding Curious whisker shape and passed this hidden trait to the kitten, which would then mean that the kitten is hiding Dad's/Ricky's shown Curious whiskers (making this kitten Curious whiskers pure) or is hiding Dad's/Ricky's hidden Frazzled whisker shape.

So, what do do with this new information? You can handle this exactly the same way as you would handle the fur trait in Section #1. In fact, you could try and figure out BOTH the fur and the whisker shape (and maybe whisker colour, for that matter) if you get a similar boy cat later! If you get a boy kitty showing Black Russian and Curious whisker shape, you could breed him with this Week 2 kitty and see if the fur AND whisker shape come out. If he also has the White whisker colour, you might even be able to discover all three mystery traits!

----------------------------------------------------
So, in summary, we have discovered that Poppy hides:

Black Russian Fur or better
Grape Ice Eyes
Small Pupil Shape
Plush Tail (from Week 1)
Mysterious Ears (from Week 1)
White Whisker Colour or better (from Week 1)
Curious Whisker Shape or better

The next breeding is coming up in less than a week! What else will we find out? Stay tuned!
http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/At...73/189/127

[Charles Courtois]

A very interesting result this time.... a few more answers & a few more questions.

This box is definitely an ideal candidate for sibling breeding down the road, & if Poppy is hiding a truly special fur or whisker trait, a great kitty to breed out awesome kitties!!

Under other circumstances, switching Poppy's partner to a cat showing a more recessive fur & more recessive whisker traits would be worth considering. However, I think sticking with the current partner is the right approach at this point, since the point of this project is more about teaching breeding principles & techniques, rather than simply learning what a specific starter is hiding. Just about every breeder will encounter situations where they don't have the cat they need to discover a trait directly, where backbreeding/ sibling breeding is the only way to go (ironically, a situation I was in when I was trying to discover the hidden Ocicat Ebony Silver fur of Ricky's Tiger ancestor hehe). This starter may just provide a good chance to illustrate those techniques.