Please Be Carefull !!

[Mellyn Llewellyn]

Appearance, yes, but the list says they were introduced on Halloween, so they were more than likely hidden in many cats. The appearance only means the first time both parents hiding it, and both parents passing the hidden. The only way it couldn't would be tracing it back to cats not born after Halloween.
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Good point.

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

I dunno what the percentage is when a new fur is released with a collection, but I don't think it's a large one, or if it's even based on a certain percentage at all lol. Seems to me like the initial 'discoveries' are made by a handfull of people over the course of the first month of breeding and the rest some from sales of said kitty and then those being bred etc. It spreads pretty fast which is why new furs command higher prices when they first are discovered.

What troubles me about what you propose about a bali cream possibly hiding S&P, is while it's theorhetically correct, the chances of it being true are almost nil. And I've occasionally heard people say things like this when trying to sell cats and it can work up a newbie into thinking they have a chance to get something they really don't.

So while I certainly don't want folks to down-play their cats, or cats they may be auctioning for others, I ask them to use common sense and draw on thier own breeding experience. Because if you look at a long line of bali creams and then have S&P pop out of nowhere, I'd run right out and spend every dime I had on lottery tickets.

[STRlNGS Resident]

(05-13-2013 11:08 AM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  I dunno what the percentage is when a new fur is released with a collection, but I don't think it's a large one, or if it's even based on a certain percentage at all lol. Seems to me like the initial 'discoveries' are made by a handfull of people over the course of the first month of breeding and the rest some from sales of said kitty and then those being bred etc. It spreads pretty fast which is why new furs command higher prices when they first are discovered.

What troubles me about what you propose about a bali cream possibly hiding S&P, is while it's theorhetically correct, the chances of it being true are almost nil. And I've occasionally heard people say things like this when trying to sell cats and it can work up a newbie into thinking they have a chance to get something they really don't.

So while I certainly don't want folks to down-play their cats, or cats they may be auctioning for others, I ask them to use common sense and draw on thier own breeding experience. Because if you look at a long line of bali creams and then have S&P pop out of nowhere, I'd run right out and spend every dime I had on lottery tickets.

If you looked Frosty's pedigree, most of his grandparents were older than dirt. http://gyazo.com/0991d2eab5763259fb866e04e4f493fe. So his line is maybe too old for the salt and pepper fur?

Basically I just wanted to know if it was okay to say hides bali cream on my easter dud boxes, when I sell them. Didn't intend a can of worms It's not like my bee, who I used to think might hide vampire ears, but turned out to hide ody boo boo, which if I had said hides vampire ears then the buyer might have been upset because vampire ears are prettier than ody boo boo. I assume people might not be upset if they get a random salt and pepper, since it way rarer than bali cream? I make no comment on the relative aesthetic appeal of the two.

[Liriel Garnet]

Just resurrecting this thread again as a reminder to everyone to PLEASE check both the pedigrees AND the dominance charts (and consult someone else if in doubt) before buying boxes saying XXXXX OS. While this may be completely true, it can be deceptive!! I'm seeing cases again of someone labeling a box as XXXXX OS (where XXXXX is a new/desireable fur), but the box cannot *possibly* hide the fur in question based on a simple analysis of the parent's furs and the dom/rec placement of those furs.

[anna Acanthus]

(06-01-2013 06:50 PM)Liriel Garnet Wrote:  Just resurrecting this thread again as a reminder to everyone to PLEASE check both the pedigrees AND the dominance charts (and consult someone else if in doubt) before buying boxes saying XXXXX OS. While this may be completely true, it can be deceptive!! I'm seeing cases again of someone labeling a box as XXXXX OS (where XXXXX is a new/desireable fur), but the box cannot *possibly* hide the fur in question based on a simple analysis of the parent's furs and the dom/rec placement of those furs.

Thanks Liri, in fact i meant to bump this thread every so often as i think it's become pretty useful.

And thanks also to everyone i didn't realise so many contributions had been made recently, my bad i don't look in on the forum much these days.

After i started the thread, well over a year ago now, things seemed to settle down well for a good while, but idk whats been happening more recently, box naming and claims seem to have gone haywire again.

I believe it's in everyone's interest to keep the KC community and market practices as irreproachable as possible.

[Wendi Lavendel]

I was poking around in one market the other morning for one specific kind of cat and found three examples of cats being labeled as hiding a certain trait that it clearly wasn't hiding (either by use of the word "hiding", stating a trait was in the background, or that the cat was an offspring of another with a certain trait; some claimed the cat was hiding a trait that was more dominant than the shown trait, one was stated as hiding a trait that was the hidden trait of a parent from which the kitten's shown trait clearly came from, etc).

Funny, as I'm typing the draft of this note, it's happening again in a chat: someone is asking for help with a cat labeled as "X trait hiding Y trait" where Y is more dominant than the shown X trait, but is the shown fur of one parent.

Anyway, I NC'd all three sellers with explanations that were clear and kind (I hope) and heard back from all three: in all cases it was simply a matter of not understanding how inherited traits worked. All were embarrassed by their mistakes and asked for help. One was actually given bad advice from someone else previously: After advertising a cat as having a more dominant trait hidden, they were contacted by another breeder that said this was wrong and they should instead list the trait as "being in the background" !! I was appalled and felt bad for the person that was given this unsound advice.

So here's a summary of the three situations, and maybe this can be used as a learning opportunity somewhere:

(If you're one of the people I talked to, )

1. Cat with recessive trait X hiding dominant trait Y, because one parent shows X and the other parent shows Y.
Can't happen: A dominant trait can never hide behind a recessive one. The parent showing trait Y must have a hidden fur more recessive than trait X, which was passed to the kitten.

2. Cat with recessive trait X has dominant trait Y in the background.
Who cares? A dominant trait can't hide behind a recessive one so who cares if a parent had trait Y? It has no effect on the breeding of this kitten - trait Y can never be bred out.

This is the same as saying a cat with recessive trait X is an offspring of dominant trait Y. It doesn't matter - you can't breed trait Y out from behind X anyway, so mentioning it is pointless.

3. This can get confusing so I'll use an example:
Kitten shows Odyssy Rainbow eyes and hides Strawberry Bellini, where Mom shows Odyssey Rainbow and has an Strawberry Bellini Mom (kitten's grandma) and Dad shows Blush Quartz.
Wrong.
Odyssey Rainbow > Strawberry Bellini > Blush Quartz
If Kitten is showing Mom's shown eye, Kitten must have gotten her hidden eye from Dad's shown or hidden eye. Dad is showing Blush Quartz and therefore can only hide Blush Quartz or Odyssey Bellini (or something new and undiscovered) (Dad can't be hiding Ody Rainbow because it's dominant to his shown Blush Quartz). Therefore, kitten hides Blush Quartz or better.

Interestingly, 2 of the three people I spoke with said it was hard to find help: they were too embarrassed to ask, were afraid to ask (feeling stupid, troll encounters, etc), never knew WHO to ask so as to get correct info, etc. The third stated that there was a big language barrier, and would love to get help in their own language.

[STRlNGS Resident]

I'm speaking as someone with a basic understanding of genetics but who is not an expert. I think that a lot of people really want to be honest, and would feel really bad if they were misrepresenting their boxes. I try to be as safe as possible, by saying things that I know for a fact, like naming a box "My daddy has flash" which is something I can be sure of. I think it's best to err on the side of caution and assume that alot of shoppers may not really understand genetics, which is why I currently have a box named "I do not hide pandie". Someone who is new could easily see a pandie parent and get over excited. (Personally, I had to ask for help to confirm that that box really couldn't hide pandie)

[Tad Carlucci]

Exactly. It's not just about false claims, and not just about sellers.

Sellers need to not only ensure they don't mislead those with lesser knowledge.

So, just as claiming a Balinese Seal Lynx hides Red Tabby is a patently false claim, simply stating "My parent was Red Tabby", while accurate, can mislead purchasers. I don't know that "I cannot hide Red Tabby" is really required, but I can see a case for it when there is mass hysteria and it seems EVERYONE wants Red Tabby.

[Wendi Lavendel]

(06-06-2013 06:02 PM)STRlNGS Resident Wrote:  I'm speaking as someone with a basic understanding of genetics but who is not an expert. I think that a lot of people really want to be honest, and would feel really bad if they were misrepresenting their boxes.

Oh, for sure, that's why I emphasized in my post, and will again, that all three people I spoke with had completely innocent intentions... none were trying to be deceptive at all and were not only greatly embarrassed by their mistakes, but expressed interest in learning more about how to get things correct.

What I learned most from this experience is that there's not enough "help" meeting the needs of newer breeders... It's sad that some are afraid to ask questions because they get snarky responses, or that they don't want to be embarrassed with lack of knowledge; some also were afraid of not knowing what help was correct and what help was incorrect. I just kept telling them to ask anyway, not to be shy because we were all in that same spot at some point. Furthermore, I've been giving out a list of names of breeders that are willing to answer questions via IM in case some people still don't wish to ask in public chat/forum (and these are people that I am confident know exactly what they're talking about and won't give out incorrect information).

As people who help, we should also make sure our facts are correct. Sometimes we're tired or maybe we miss a day's worth of notices and don't catch the latest discoveries... There's nothing wrong with double-checking your facts or asking someone else to check them for you. Don't be afraid to check your info before you give it out! Double-checking your facts doesn't mean you're dumb - it means you're smart for ensuring you get your facts right. It also means you care about the quality of help you give out

[Devilness Chant]

I have a bit too much time on my hands lately and have been wondering around looking at kitties in shops.
I thought it was important to bump this thread as I've seen a lot of wrong info all over the place.

Since I'm not perfect, (shocking but true) I too make a number of mistakes. Even the one fur of them all I should know in my sleep, my beloved bali flame. For like a month I was thinking it was dom to bali seal. (what can I say I wasn't breeding much for a while)

With the order of all the new traits being up and down the scale, I find it best not to advertise hides anything. lol Even when I'm absolutely sure. We're all breeders and can see for ourselves what's in there.

I see kitty hides blush shade but don't see it anywhere in the pedigree.... when a pedigree is even offered. If you can't show it, it's best not to say anything. Maybe it's there a few generations back, but if a person can't see it, then they may think you are trying to cheat someone out of their lindens.

I won't mention names, but today I saw a spam for a number of kitties at a shop. Tp'd right away, even copy pasted the list for a friend who came with me. FALSE ADVERTISING will not make you much money. Even though the kitties that were there were ok and very inexpensive, I would not have bought anything since my time was wasted looking for one kitty that didn't exist. I also saw the same false advertising on traits that were nowhere in the pedigree. There was no way anyone bought the kitties from the list because my friend and I were the first ones there and the only ones that showed up. If those kitties had been sold days before then they should update their spam.

If you are new and unsure, ask someone. And use Saga's chart to see the dom order of traits. Sagas Charts