Fair Trade

[Saga Felix]

(01-16-2013 10:57 AM)Petronilla Whitfield Wrote:  I suspect that any set of guidelines established by the secondary market rather than by KittyCatS will be more harmful to the community than otherwise.

Very much agreed.

(01-16-2013 10:57 AM)Petronilla Whitfield Wrote:  It seems to me that the issue of guidelines is not about respect for breeders—which seems to be well-established already—but about *disrespect* for resellers, and for those who are interested in both breeding and marketing. In all fairness, I think that *all* types of knowledge and effort in the secondary market place deserve respect: breeding, auctioning, figuring out trait placement, teaching, marketing, selling, and reselling. Attempting to promote the valuation of some types of knowledge and effort as virtuous while encouraging people to consider other types of knowledge and effort as shady and dishonest seems to me to be among the most divisive things that could be done to a community.

VERY well made point. While I still think that DIRECT re-selling without consent from the original breeder/seller is a bit dodgy, I do believe you make some VERY fair points here Petronilla, some that we should all consider before judging sellers / advertisers etc.

Heck, I wouldn't mind being able to "hire" a re-seller who could do all the marketing-stuff for me in exchange for a high percentage of the sell-price! LOL

[Devilness Chant]

Oh wow! *Dev raises petticoats as not to soil her dress. *grabs straw in case she needs it to breath. (boy is it getting deep in here!)
I followed this and the other thread, and nowhere did I see anyone imply that the immortal souls of resellers will burn.
Everyone agreed that you buy the box or kitty you own it and only expressed how we felt. Many supported the idea of resell even.
The only strict policies I've seen in these threads is the policy not to have an opinion or a feeling about anything. And help you if you do, cause the post police will get you! *sing with me! Bad poster, bad poster, what ya gonna do, what ya gonna do when they come for you.
Sooooo where did the giant soap box come from? It's so huge it has blocked out the sun! There goes my tan!

I want to thank the "constructive" posters that have opened my eyes to many things and helped me to decide what I want to do next. Even some of the rude individuals have helped me to decide so I should thank you also.

I didn't even realize I've been breeding kitties for two years till I was chatting with someone last night. I've seen many ups and downs in kc and the market. But i miss the days when I didn't feel the need to breed kitties to sell so I could afford to breed the kitties I wanted to breed.

Only a few of the new traits even interest me. And there is such a flood of them it's over kill. I remember hearing someone got something new and I couldn't wait to see it and find out how they got it. Now it's like oh another one today?

For now I've decided to close my store and find a little place like I used to have. To keep maybe 20 or 30 kitties. And keep it all small till things either get better or I get totally bored with it all.

A lot of good ppl have left kc and I see more and more looking into and trying other breedables. Good ppl that are sick of a lot of things that have been going on. Or just bored with the same ole same ole. I think even more will leave and it really makes me sad.

I'll still be around. (so don't throw those parties just yet ) And I love to police the police so try to be a little kinder to ppl and show others that you disagree with the same respect you preach everyone else should have. I don't have to be so nice now.

[Callie Cline]

(re post from protocol tread since they are similar)

i wanted to quickly chime in to say we really appreciate all the care, consideration and discussion you all put into your cats and the community.

be it about a subject like this, or classes, breeding tips, charts, history... this community is one that is full of so many diverse people who seem to REALLY CARE about their cats, and really each other.

it's such a great thing to see. often such discussions can turn VERY ugly in other forums i've seen, yet even with some disagreement here and there and touches of sarcasm, overall this community is a pool of knowledge, caring and creative people.

thank you for all each of you contribute. it really does make for an exciting community.

also, keep in mind when reading posts... tone, voice, and all those other things can be left out. if possible remember no matter what is said, it most often comes because the person "cares". it may not be the way you care, but, if we see each other that way, we'll only continue to be stronger.

also, seeking to understand... rather than be understood many have found is a great way to have another want to understand your view too.

[Callie Cline]

(01-21-2013 09:05 AM)Khea Karas Wrote:  I find it pretty disappointing that they continue to delete or remove threads that challenge and evoke discussion of important concerns and topics in the community. This is censorship and unacceptable. What happened to the protocol thread? Deleted? Moved? No one used bad language or got aggressive with anyone so whats the deal??! This community is not always hugs and butterflies and smiles. We have real concerns and have a right to discuss them.

we did not remove or delete the protocol thread.

to offer a bit more clarification regarding censorship, we think all should have the right to express themselves, and we support that. we have simple guidelines we ask that are kept and it seems they are over 99% of the time. to my knowledge we have removed one thread/comment (maybe 2) in the past 2 years after speaking to the OP. at times we do move them to another place, i.e., the "feedback" category when feedback is put in general or to "sales" when sales are put in general, etc.

we take pride in the fact our community can have discussions with varying points of view that remain pretty much on topic and have very little in the way of personal "attacks", even during strong disagreement. it's not common in most forums and we applaud you all for that.

so again we encourage and support the expression of thoughts and views.

[Devilness Chant]

(01-21-2013 09:05 AM)Khea Karas Wrote:  I find it pretty disappointing that they continue to delete or remove threads that challenge and evoke discussion of important concerns and topics in the community. This is censorship and unacceptable. What happened to the protocol thread? Deleted? Moved? No one used bad language or got aggressive with anyone so whats the deal??! This community is not always hugs and butterflies and smiles. We have real concerns and have a right to discuss them.

I'm not sure who you mean by "they" but I know "who" deleted it. Maybe you should talk to "they" and get the facts before saying anything. Since "they" can be a plural, I will assume to know who "they" are, since "they" are the only ones that can move a thread. (I don't want to investigate farther) lol
And while we are not all butterflies and smiles. Sometimes things do get a little too rough, and feelings do get hurt. Sometimes ppl don't take the time to find a more subtle approach to make a point. (and yes sarcasm can be mean if you don't find the humor in it) *guilty of that one.
I hate to ruin a good conspiracy theory. (I do have a few of my own involving greed and corruption) But Censorship is not one of them at this moment.

[Khea Karas]

(01-21-2013 10:07 AM)Callie Cline Wrote:  we did not remove or delete the protocol thread.

Ok thanks for clarifying that. I no longer see it in the General discussion thread. I checked with some friends who also no longer see it too. I therefore concluded that it had been deleted.

To answer you Devilness..."They" meaning "website moderators" who else has the power to move/delete things from the forum. Thought that was pretty obvious

Just because feelings can get hurt doesn't mean we should stop discussion. If you cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen I always say. Yes, there is a right and wrong way to say things, but people in general are over sensitive in this community and I think tend to over react to the slightest things. Especially on a forum where you can not detect tone, or pick up on sarcasm (which I do find humor in. ;p Probably the Australian side coming out, as we tend to use sarcasm often as a form of humor. )

Anyways I jumped the gun too fast, sorry for speaking up. Ill learn to hold my tongue one day.

Happy Days! (no not in sarcastic way )

EDIT: Ive just been told the OP removed the thread. (Bad OP...jk) Sorry for jumping to conclusions...I will remove my original post

[Kayleigh McMillan]

It's sad that thread is removed in my opinion as it became a community effort and was on many parts very educational.
Okay it was not drama free but what is in life.
I feel a valuable documentation I think all of us learned from and some of us contributed to is destroyed and that is sad for future reference.
It gives to think why discussing things at all if the one who starts a thread has the right to delete a community effort as a whole.
But by how this forum is constructed this is possible and this happened.
I feel this should not be possible when something becomes clearly a community effort and I for one feel it is a waste of time, emotions and efforts to even contribute to a discussion.
I have filed a ticket about this and questioned if it should be possible to just delete such as a single individual and they felt it is the intitial poster's full right to delete all the efforts we brought just like that.
I feel very sorry for freedom of speech here no matter what "side" we were standing we were in this together and our community is one big family which cares and that was what I learned from the thread.

EDIT
I like to clarify I question the functionality of these forums for one being able to delete a complete thread over blaming this person in specific i understand where she came from when she decided to do this and in the current forum format she can do that and with that comes she has the right to do that.
Because efforts of people and well chosen words are gone and I feel that is a technical mistake by how these forums are constructed and it makes me wonder why we should discuss things and take the time to do so at all not only in this specific topic.
In fact I deleted quite some threads I created myself currently just because I can with this I question should that be possible when more than one person contributed to a thread?
This was one of those threads worth to read back when the dust was settled down so we could read what was reallly written over what we in that specific emotion thought was written.
Sadly we only have what we thought was written left and no reference what so ever because I still think the content was valuable if you take away the emotions of the moment.
I understand simple adverticement threads and such clearly can be removed by the OP but maybe there should come a point in such situation as with the "Protocol ???" thread a moderator takes ownership of that thread due to community relevance.
This gives the intial first poster still all rights to remove and edit posts or even delete the first one without taking away everything.

[Bea Shamrock]

(01-15-2013 05:46 PM)penfold83 Resident Wrote:  i think with the new breeders, would be to help them improve upon the little kitty's they are making, they produced a 3t hiding a 7th, not do it for them but show how they can get the traits out, instead of the said cat going out on market very cheep and still no one buys, and gets them frustrated.

So in essence clearing the confusion around kittys trying too get them too attend the breeders classes if they still happen... Ohhh that another point for the peeps that can not get too said classes, why not record them and stick them on you tube ? so they can keep going back too it ?

Hi Pen Kitty breeding classes still happen and are advertised in the educational section of the forum. Some happen weekly, others from time to time.

I agree that recording them for those that can't attend or want to go back to them is a positive idea. We've started posting the main points of Liriel's in the Kitty Kottage blog.

Regarding youTube and video recording: I've experimented with it for other reasons, and find Fraps very efficient. Jing (unless it's changed) will only record 5 minutes at a time. Camtasia is very good but on the expensive side and probably more complex than is needed for machinima. One suggestion I have is to try different font sizes as chat doesn't always come up large enough/very clearly (in my recordings at least)and sometimes without access to typed comments the spoken class won't be taken full advantage of. There are also some HUDs ( the exact name escapes me now) that help with camera managing and other things and I've found them useful used in combination with Fraps (or potentially any other motion screen capturing software).

One more thing I'd like to add regarding the topic of helping new breeders: I've noticed quite a number of them ask for help in group chat inworld, but few of them receive breeding help (at least publicly), even when many experienced breeders are online with chat open according to the side bar. Sometimes other things happen in the middle (like someone posting kitty stats) and it's hard to follow, I understand. But some other times there's just silence, especially if it's a specific question. We are a sharing community and I believe we all want new breeders to feel welcome and supported, and a wider use group chat, I think, is one more tool we have to achieve that goal.

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

I too am a bit sad the OP chose to delete the Protocol thread. It had kind of taken on a life of it's own. We as a community NEED to be able to freely discuss issues that arise, air greivances, ask questions and just bitch in general now and then. Because there are still many taboos involving what is safe to discuss and what is not, we form cliques within the community at large. As I've been told, its not what you say, its who you say it to. This only further divides us and tends to degrade at times into an "us and them" mentality. There IS a difference, albeit subtle, between choosing to hang with close friends, and being cliquish and I think it's all in how you perceive others. Are they someone you just don't know very well yet, or are they the dreaded THEM? No one is going to truely like or get along with everyone. But we can SEE everyone as a member of our community entitled to courtesy and respect.

I don't like anyone blowing sunshine up my ...skirt. We need to be able to see things for what they really are if we hope to encourage positive change in any situation. With that in mind, I'd like to thank those that are continuing to post in this thread. I have no intention of deleting it.

[Devilness Chant]

I'm just disappointed it's gone cause it was part of my daily entertainment. lol
We can only say the same thing so many different ways. And when it gets to the point were ppl are getting rude and emotional...then maybe it is best to just get rid of it. It just sadly reaches a point where it's more like warfare, than constructive discussion.
Maybe opening another thread starting with a different perspective?
And Noc....I wish someone would blow sunshine up my skirt, cause it's below zero here and I'm freezing my butt off.