Please Be Carefull !!

[Bea Shamrock]

(10-27-2012 10:59 AM)devilness chant Wrote:  I like to think that 99.9 percent of our kitty community are honest ppl. But there is that .1 we have to watch out for.

Indeed Dev. And I might be seen as silly by telling this, but when I just started out, I'd normally look for live kitties to even my cattery. Once I saw a kitty named "Rapunzel, Rapunzel, come down" or something similar, all staged with the kitty stretching up and a tower beside it , etc. I was looking for a male kitty. Kitty was calling out for Rapunzel, i liked it I bought it. No stats were displayed over the kitty and when I got home I discovered that it was a female. That was no misunderstanding on the part of the seller. After that I started to check everything.

[Dario Maesar]

(10-27-2012 12:04 PM)Kayleigh McMillan Wrote:  Yes reputation is very important because a seller can, if intentionally, make a good sale by a false claim but these rumors go fast.
And we all know new people make mistakes as for what a cat can hide that is forgivable I think.
Yes, it is either KC comes with an official dominance order list which sure would damage some of the game element or we need to make sure new people feel free to ask our opinion about a cat before they buy.
I'm very happy so much initiatives are taken to educate people I'm so amazed how fast newer people learn to breed.
You new breeders out there can't stop to amaze me, seriously!
That was way different in our days

Yes.... I totally agree with you... but on a site note... you can be having trouble like that one I had... I had a little obstacle that made me look like one of those stupids that tell people something is hidding when it's not...

I sold this cat on an auction a Siamese Chocolate that was hidding Balinese Seal Lynx. The cat sold quite well and the person was happy with it at first. After a couple of breeds, I met that person on an auction again and they messaged me something like "Hey, the cat you sold me, it does not hide Balinese Seal Lynx. It is probably Siamese Chocolate on Siamese Chocolate, but I am not faulting you". I was like "HUH? One second!" and went to IM with Saga. Saga also said the Balinese Seal is hidding... just that althought the new owner put my cat with a Balinese Seal Lynx, he fur didn't came out. She obviously only ever got Siamese Chocolates. I talked to her and could rest her assure the Balinese Seal Lynx is in there. Mom was a Balinese Seal Lynx, dad was a Siamese Chocolate, it is impossible to be Siamese Chocolate on Siamese Cholate. Sometimes, even IF something is hidding, it still is no garantuee that you breed that cat with that hiding and get that hiddings to pop from it. That's my experience and all the more you should consider as buyer, how much afford it might cost you to breed with an offspring toward your goal. Sure, the offspring of a, lets say Ocicat Ebony Silver, might be cheaper as the Ocicat Ebony Silver directly... one has the fur shown the other has it hidden... but you might put much more afford into the offspring trying to get it give out the damn hiddings than having breeded with the direct shown trait you wished for in the first place.

Which makes me think that it is not always cool to look for a cheap kitty (cheap as in -I take the offspring is make my wallet less cry than buy the direct fur or trait-)... and from the sellers point of view it is not good to sell an cat as offspring of something that is much asked at the market... even if you can tell 100% sure that something hides inside. You do have to count on a newbie thinking it out too easily and then picking up on you and telling you something about your cat not giving what you sold it as...

In the end, MY personal reason to buy offsprings and breed with them is to kill my boredome. Sometimes I get bored, then I buy such cats and see what I can do to it... just to be busy with some new project somehow... other than that, I learned the hard way that luck makes a big part of breeding... I have tried to breed cats that made no good results for me in my cattery, selling them off and their new owner has a great result BAM with them. Makes me hammer my face against the wall thinking "Dooh, why not with me?!" On the other hands, cats that have bought no luck to their owners giving me great results sometimes...

*cought* Before I drift away more... LOL I will stop it at this point

I breed for fun, I sell the cats I have left over from my breeding try, I keep breeding the best offsprings again and pair in new blood from other peoples rather great breeding results... KittyCatS is nontheless fun.... just be watchful is never wrong as seller as well as as buyer

Happy Breeding

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

Is important to note that the kitties can mess up your claim by doing you one better too. What if that Momma kitty Dario mentioned was hiding Bali Cream and she passed that instead of the seal lynx? I think more buyers would be pleased by that but you never know. I have kinda got in the habit of saying "hides blah blah 'or better'" as one way of saying the hidden is at least X but possibly Y too.

I remember being "new" and even for a while after you really couldn't call me new anymore..figuring out what a cat can hide or can't hide can be tricky. What helped me the most was the recessiveness charts and (really want to emphasize this) TALKING TO OTHER BREEDERS. I was soooo shy at first I could barely say hello to people. That's another great thing KittyCatS has done is allow me to get over some of that shyness and have a common topic to talk about.

Best advice when buying..ask if you're not sure. IM the seller..IM a breeder friend or ask in one of the various groups in anyone has a minute to come help.

[Bea Shamrock]

Read and re-read Saga's text docs, find info about Mendelian genetics (youtube has clips from college classes), take KC breeding classes, ask questions politely and approrpiately at those auctions where questions are welcome, learn about punnett squares (Karnaugh maps seems to work too but I still don't know enough about them), analyze your own pedigrees and trace traits back...just some more ideas.

They all point to what I aimed my students would develop, really, back in the days: resources and skills for independent life-long learning and independent thinking.

[anna Acanthus]

I'm waking up this thread again as i've been recently hearing that there is more and more misinformation about breeding and traits especially in secondary market claims.

In case some haven't been shown Saga"s docs yet here's the link : https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B0_Wqb33nVpnZWYwNGViMGMtYWU4ZS00ZjAyLTk4OTctMzk2YzljODliMDhm/edit?hl=en_US

Now take the Eyes Dominance Order ; if, for example you are wanting Ody Kaleidoscope and someone shows you a kitty showing Jade then there is NO way the Ody Kal can be hiding there as it is DOMINANT to Jade - this Jade eye will be hiding either Jade or could be hiding any one of the 3 eyes lower on the page as these are RECESSIVE to Jade. (Examination of the pedigree is necessary to determine this.)
** I won't get into further technical details at this stage else this post would soon get indigestible

The same rule goes for all other traits, dominants at the top of page working down in order to the recessives.

So the rule is - Any given trait will be hiding either the same or a more recessive, NEVER a more dominant.

As for working out if the more recessive eye is present then this needs a lecture of the pedigree if this recessive isn't shown in either of the parents and any honest and reputable breeder will be more than happy to show this to you if it isn't allready available in their store.
If you aren't yet familiar enough with pedigrees then please do ask a seasoned breeder to help you out as the community allways likes to protect new breeders from making mistakes - Saga felix , Liriel Garnet , Kayleigh , Khea Karas , Nocshadue Balbozar , Devilness Chant , Sanura Snowpaw, myself even ( to name just a few )

And best of all, learn from these docs and go to breeding classes and you'll soon be able to work it all out for yourself in just a few secs

Edit : well sorry guys but google links seem to have gone dead on me so you'll just have to copy paste the above link to the docs or find them here : http://kittycats.biz/forum/showthread.php?tid=2351 in the OP

[Nocshadue Balbozar]

I'm kind of glad you woke up this thread anna. I haven't been wandering the markets lately but what has disturbed me is stuff I hear sometimes in KC chat. A phrase I hear a lot is "carry the genes". The mistaken assumption is that a cat can "carry the genes" of multiple hiddens. I don't know where this came from but its very confusing to new breeders. This is something I have also heard at some auctions I've popped into and that really infuriates me. New breeders look to auctioneers to know their stuff and be able to advise them. When we have auctioneers telling their audience that a dominant trait CAN be hiding behind something KNOWN to be more recessive, it hurts everyone.

Another point of confusion with new people seems to be that a cat CAN pass a hidden. I've been seeing MANY people posting a new kitten and having NO idea why they got say a bali lilac when they were expecting a bengal snow. If you can get them to gyazo the pedi for you, its usually easy to tell, but I've noticed many new people just starting to breed have no idea how to access a pedigree. They've never heard of the forums, never been to an auction, so the only resource they've been using is chat and/or other people they may know who also breed, many of which are new themselves.

I usually don't mention hiddens anymore in boxes I have for sale. I let buyers perv the pedi and draw their own conclusions. Mainly because I don't want anyone to be dissappointed if a kitty with a CHANCE to hide something didn't hide it. So it's touchy there, labeling cats or boxes for sale.

There is always a learning curve. I was completely clueless when I started breeding and it took me a few months and help from Draco and Theo, who stated in KC chat one day that they were happy to be IM'd with questions. I took them up on that offer and have bugged them with questions ever since =op. Now, I'm a pretty good trait detective lol, and am also happy to be IM'd if anyone would like some help. Its a lot easier to figure things out now than it was back in the olden days when I was new and we didn't have a pedigree website, or trait charts and...I had to walk to auctions uphill bothways too! =op

[anna Acanthus]

(04-29-2013 03:28 AM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  A phrase I hear a lot is "carry the genes". The mistaken assumption is that a cat can "carry the genes" of multiple hiddens. I don't know where this came from but its very confusing to new breeders. This is something I have also heard at some auctions I've popped into and that really infuriates me. New breeders look to auctioneers to know their stuff and be able to advise them. When we have auctioneers telling their audience that a dominant trait CAN be hiding behind something KNOWN to be more recessive, it hurts everyone.

Heck yes i've seen this multiple trait claim in a selling post a while back but didn't think the idea was at all widespread.
Obviously from some peeps who've recently migrated from Roos or something.

KCs is a structured trait breeding system which allows us to develop exactly the traits we wish to and not a crap shoot random game like some others i won't mention here.

As for auctioneers not even knowing how the product they're selling works, well the mind boggles and these ppl should be politely advised to go do some schoolwork .

Repeats - Only ONE shown and ONE hidden per trait and A DOMINANT TRAIT CANNOT EVER IN ANY CASE BE HIDING BEHIND A MORE RECESSIVE TRAIT !!

[Tad Carlucci]

In formal terms, KittyCatS are "deterministic". That means the outcome is fully determined by your choice of parents.

Meeroos are "non-deterministic" .. any outcome can appear at any time.

While it can be argued that Meeroos exhibit a "genetic-like" behavior, it's not based upon individual genetics. Meeroos parents are not "the" parents .. they are "prototypical representations" of a broad selection of "potential parents". At each breeding, you're effectively reaching into a huge pool of parents which *look*like* the one you're holding but might have completely different genetics and can produce radically different results.

This is NOT the case with KittyCatS. With KittyCatS, the genetics are FIXED and IMMUTABLE. This occurs when the box is first rezzed in-world.

[Giuliana Verrazzano]

*BUMPS!*

Thank you Anna for reviving this thread!

This is one of those things about breeding KittyCats that is cyclic. Same mistakes get repeated when new breeders join in (usually after Limited Edition Collections are released, however new breeders join for various reasons and this does not affect the outcome) and if they have experience with other breedables the confusion can be even bigger.

My 50cents: KittyCats traits don't get "unlocked", they don't automatically get better the more generations you breed of one same line unless you pay attention to which traits your kitties passed to the offspring and are careful enough to breed those that show or hide the traits you are looking for. They don't magically "upgrade" and this is directly linked to what was said in the previous posts of this thread: A cat can only pass a trait if it has it shown or hidden, if not, it's simply impossible.

I do mark my boxes or live kitties with the hidden trait if I am completely sure the trait is hidden and I always provide the pedigrees to prove it and usually that cat/box has the proof pedigree rezzed right next to it, but I can see how someone can feel let down if they repeatedly get the more dominant trait as shown. I will reconsider my labeling system but I think besides it can confuse some, it can help others understand the breeding system if they take the time to review the pedigree carefully.

About the Auctioneers who make elemental mistakes when they talk about what a kitty can hide and cannot, I have heard some lately who make emphasis in a particular desirable trait in the background even if there is no chance that trait could be hidden in the cat they are auctioning or make comments as "Grand Dad is an Aby Cream so who knows?" when they are auctioning an Abyssinian Black & Silver. This completely puts me off from coming back, whether this is done intentionally or not I have no idea but I think it's about time they revise the information about the KittyCats breeding system so they can be able to provide instructional information during their auctions. A bit of polish to their auctioning techniques can do no harm either.

I am more than happy to help new breeders or those willing to learn more about KittyCats. I love pedigree perving and find amusing those intricate pedigrees that seem to be complicated to determine whether or not a trait managed to pass as hidden through generations.

My IM is always open for pedigree questions and discussions

Giulia

[Tad Carlucci]

Yes! We can forgive new players making such mistakes, but it's unforgivable for an auctioneer to do so. Any who do should be avoided at all costs. The job of the auctioneer is to fairly represent the cat on behalf of the seller; not make patently false claims simply to get the sale.