Breeding hidden true recessives.

[anna Acanthus]

Ok to start, we use the term "true recessive" ( TR ) to designate the most recessive trait known in any category.

We've recently seen a recrudescence of the latest TRs hidden behind the 2nd most recessive on sale.
Unless the buyer has a partner showing and hiding this TR then they will have a helluva chore trying to bring that TR out . Why ? because there is nothing between those two traits to breed it out with.
(And even if they do have a partner with the hidden it could take weeks)
So their only possibility is to breed a few pairs from this and cross fingers that the TR has passed and wait it out, at the same having no possible indicator of the said TR having been passed on.
Even if they have OMFG luck and they get lucky with the very first OS pair, quite a few weeks will have passed and their investment's value will have dwindled drastically.

I'll take an example which i haven't seen so i don't think any particular breeder will feel singled out : say i'm wanting some Soft Curl ears, well, Soft Curl behind Ody Round Fold may look pretty cool but i wouldn't bother using it for Soft Curl even if it was given to me.
On the other hand, if i find it hidden behind curious ears i'll grab it before you can say OMFG. I will have fifteen options open to me to get at those ears !
In the same way, the ideal for a hidden TR coat would be behind a genesis fur, i'd have the entire range of furs to choose from to work with, and i can also add all the traits i want to in the process.

I've had two relatively new breeders recently who've asked my advice on how to breed a TR from a shown next recessive. They spent pretty good money for their kitty and i felt almost as upset as they did when i had to tell them that there was no sure way of doing it.

[Katrin Bracken]

So true ~ new breeders need to know and thank you for sharing!

[Khea Karas]

Thank God Anna...Finally someone spoke up about this. <3

Im getting so sick of seeing TR traits bred with the second most recessive trait. People just dont understand, and what makes its worse is when these cats go for huge $$$ to newer breeders who have no idea that their chances of pulling the TR is almost impossible unless they actually have that same SHOWING TR trait in their cattery to breed it with.

Example: Snowshoe Cream hidden behind a Foxy Salty Pepper. Without another Snowshoe Cream I have no choice but to breed it with another Foxy S&P...result. Foxy S&P Kitten. There is no way of knowing if the Snowshoe Cream has passed on this kitten. Remembering a cat can pass EITHER of the parents Hidden OR Shown Fur. Therefore it might just be a PURE Foxy S&P with nothing hidden. This is what we call a dud cat, because there will never be a way of knowing if the fur has passed until it has actually proven to pass the fur by producing a kitten that is snowshoe cream.

Another thing that really irks me lately too is when people who breed these DUD kittens then resell them advertising that it REALLY HIDES THE TR. I have seen so many of these lately and from breeders who should know better. Its ok to sell duds, Im not saying that they shouldnt, but they should be clear about it to the potential buyers, that there is only a 50/50 chance the cat hides the TR.....not for certain. Otherwise its fraudulent on their behalf to advertise a DUD kitten as having the TR trait that will pass for certain and letting it go for big bucks.

Anyways I guess the best advice for newer breeders is to not get caught up into this trap. If you want to breed out that true recessive trait, make sure you buy only dominant kittens with that TR hidden, and save yourself much heartache and wasted lindens. Cats showing the second most recessive trait will not make your breeding life easy, and your chances are very slim you will ever see that TR trait from your expensive kitten.

Edit: Yes I mean Snowshoe Cream not Red...geez, tallk about *facepalm*

[anna Acanthus]

Right Khea

In fact we went through all this a couple of years ago, remember ? : http://kittycats.biz/forum/showthread.ph...033&page=1
I bumped this old thread the other day but as LibGwen pointed out, it could be rather confusing now so i started another thread on the subject.

* I think you mean Snowshoe Cream, not Red ^^

** If any of the FAB FOUR look at this thread could you please move it to the breeding section.
So sorry, i should know better than try post early in the morning

[Kayleigh McMillan]

{{{{ #%>@*%+#<%^!!!! }}}} is what I have to say about this topic but I admit it is not the right time of the month for me to read this let alone react on it. {{{{ @!#<*^+$!!! }}}}
I'm not so political correct at the moment so I will hide myself again.
Thanks for bringing this topic to attention Anna!

[Saga Felix]

Agreed here - a Siamese Seal with the most recessive fur as a hidden trait is a hundred times more useful than it'd be if the shown fur was the 2nd most recessive. Basically a cat like that is utterly useless to anyone that doesn't have the opposite gender that ALSO hides the same fur.

So, breeders - get some sense and make use of those beautiful and VERY nice Siamese Seals! Breed 8 fine traits on that fur, and you will be ahead in the game next time a new true recessive comes out

[Zevara Resident]

This thread is baffling to me. I'll use whiskers as an example...
You'll pull swanky whiskers out a lot easier using light wave than with mysterious. Either way, whether you use mysterious whiskers to try and pull it or light wave, and it doesn't show, you still have a cat hiding swanky (hopefully). Using dominant traits to pull really recessive traits rarely works for me. I do much better when the traits are closer together in relation to the trait spectrum, than further apart.

[Tad Carlucci]

Quote:You'll pull a deeply recessive out more easily with trait XXX

This is only Conditionally true. For this to be true, XXX **must** be more recessive than the 'deeply recessive' goal. If XXX is dominant to your goal, the statement is provably false.

The point of this thread ...

Take two traits, say Foxie Salt and Pepper and Snowshoe Cream, as an example.

Say, for the sake of argument that Showshoe Cream is the current True Recessive (I know, we think it is .. TODAY .. but, in a few months, it won't be).

And, say, also for the sake of argument that Foxie Salt and Pepper is only one step more dominant. That is, there are no other furs between the two.

Now, say we see a Foxie Salt and Pepper and we're pretty sure it hides Snowshoe Cream. Why? Well, we check the Pedigree and one parent was a Snowshoe Cream. Foxie Salt and Pepper must have come from the other parent (since it can't hide behind Snowshoe Cream). The Foxie Salt and Pepper we're looking at can hide nothing other than Showshoe Cream since there is nothing else the Showshoe Cream could hide.

The point of this thread is that, if the Foxie we're looking at is the ONLY "carries Snowshoe Cream" we have or can obtain, it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to produce Snowshoe Cream as a direct offspring.

And, it is LIKELY (not impossible, but very, very likely) that we will be unable to produce Snowshoe Cream by back-breeding any box to the Foxie parent OR by crossing offspring to offspring.

And, to make matters worse, if we fail, as we're likely to, the odds STRONGLY FAVOR the Snowshoe Cream genetic material will be COMPLETELY LOST and it will forever be impossible to produce the fur unless we purchase new genetic material.

Yes, you can beat the odds and succeed with just one "hides Cream" producing a "shows Cream" in the second generation.

But, if you fail you likely have NO recourse. Your failure is TOTAL. Not only did you not get it, you NEVER can get it.

Yes, you can still beat the odds and succeed in a subsequent generation.

But, with each generation is is AT LEAST 4 times more likely you'll TOTALLY FAIL and can NEVER SUCCEED in the next.

If, however, you start with a more dominant "hides Cream" you DO have recourse down the generations. Depending on how dominant you started with, it is possible you can go 70 or more generations before you get to the "S&P hides" point and run the risk of total failure.

And THAT is the point of this thread .. that, AS A PURCHASER, it it FAR WISER to purchase a more dominant "hides Cream" than it is to purchase a "Salt and Pepper hides Cream"

[Barbara Collazo]

I'm sorry--I'm a new breeder, but I just don't get this. For any two furs, the chances are always 50-50 that you will send the hidden trait to the kitten. So what difference does the showing trait make? Still 50-50, no matter what the shown fur is.

Yes--you can't show it in the second generation because it will hide behind the dominant fur. But back breeding or sib breeding should work.

Please explain why which fur (or whisker or whatever other trait) makes a difference.

Barbara

[Zevara Resident]

It doesn't make a difference. Which was the point of my post. It's a chance regardless of what fur or whisker, or whichever trait is showing. And you don't "lose" traits in breeding. If you have 120 days to breed a kitten, and not one of the offspring shows or hides the recessive trait...I'd consider this person extremely unlucky, but I also backbreed all of my new, recessive traits. Perhaps that is the difference?