Karloff is dumb (and needs help with breeding)

Karloff is dumb (and needs help with breeding) - Printable Version

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Karloff is dumb (and needs help with breeding) - Karloff Foehammer - 12-17-2014 07:14 AM

Good morning everyone!

I've got a question about breeding. I am trying to make a pure line of foxie blondies with foxie ears and blonde-streaked whiskers (foxie foxie blondie blondies).

I've gotten one or two one-off cats, but have not yet been able to start a line of them. My problem is this: i'm working on my third generation of cross-breeding and suddenly my foxie ears have disappeared. i've bred two cats identical to this one:

[img]

foxy breeding 1 by karlofffoehammer1, on Flickr[/img]

further proof:
[img]

foxy breeding 2 by karlofffoehammer1, on Flickr[/img]

the mom and dad are brother and sister, so the grandparent's lines are the same, but for reference, here's the dad:

foxy breeding 3 by karlofffoehammer1, on Flickr
my questions are these:

i started to ask about this in the group chat and someone mentioned that once you breed siblings together so many times, the recessive gene (in this case ody boo boo ears) will show up 3 out of 4 times. Is this true?

I can't back breed Nicholas or Catherine because Baba Yaga and Koschei have retired, but I have a few cats from that generation (i think). If i back breed Catherine or Nicholas with one of their aunts or uncles, will I be able to solidify the ears that I want?

If the recessive gene does become more dominant, why aren't the shade (illume) or the whiskers (blonde-streaked) popping out as well?

have i totally screwed up my breeding plan? what can i do to get things back on track?

thanks!

RE: Karloff is dumb (and needs help with breeding) - Ivy Norsk - 12-17-2014 08:03 AM

Just a few quick comments because I haven't looked over your charts in detail (coffeee..... more morning coffee).
The first is that the only way to truly know that your foxie ears are solid is to bury them under an ear that is more DOMINANT and then pull them back out again with a sibling breed. And the same with the blonde whiskers. And illume if you want it.

Quote:once you breed siblings together so many times, the recessive gene (in this case ody boo boo ears) will show up 3 out of 4 times. Is this true?

I would say, in short, no. It looks like shorthand math. If you have buried a trait and are doing a sibling breed (where they both hide the same recessive from a parent) to get it back out there is a 1/4 chance that the dominant showing trait will become pure in the kitten (that both siblings will throw dominant). The descendants of this line will of course never throw that recessive trait again - it's gone. 2/4=1/2 of sibling breeds will have the dominant trait covering the recessive trait. These are the tricky ones, but with each kitten they are still going to have a 50/50 chance of throwing their hidden fur, which does not reach any kind of 3/4 mark for throwing recessives. And in 1/4 of sibling breeds, both cats throw the recessive and the recessive is then pure; the dominant is completely gone. I wonder if the 3/4 number you see is a kind of amalgamation of the last 3 options I mentioned here - the recessive Won't SHOW, but it will be PRESENT in either shown or hidden form in 3/4 of the cases of sibling breeds.

Kitty cat breeding is kind of a pain that way, trying to get all the traits solid. I certainly wouldn't bother to get everything pure, not all the time, but it sounds like you are picking and choosing your battles, so that's alright.

Edit post coffee: If you Really want to do this, you need to split Cathy and Nic up. Sad

I don't know how much cattery space you want to devote to this but if you can have Cath and Nic working on the same project separately things will have a better chance of working out in the Long Run. But it's long, and you're going to bury the traits you want to pull them back out pure and that comes with no guarantees that you will get the cats to throw all their recessives when you want them too.

Catherine needs to go with a 9T cat that has a more dominant fur (though I wouldn't personally chide you for using another foxie blondie) that has a pretty eye, shade you want, a nice tail (swanky and fussy go well with foxie ears imo), an ear that is MORE Dominant than foxie, and blonde whiskers.
Nicholas needs to go with a 9T cat with foxie blondie or more dominant fur with pretty eye, shade you want, nice tail (preferably the same desired one that Cath is going with), a more dominant ear (which does NOT need to be the same as Cath's new mate and probably Shouldn't be the same) and whiskers that are More Dominant than blonde (so when the blonde shows up again you know it's pure*).
Best of luck. I wish you well. It's a good project.

*There are some caveats to this quick summary. Because of course the cats you buy to go with Cath and Nic have their Own Hiddens, and that can complicate the picture.

RE: Karloff is dumb (and needs help with breeding) - Tad Carlucci - 12-17-2014 10:40 AM

You've been line breeding, putting sibling to sibling. This can never produce a provably 'pure' line.

Looking at the new box from Catherine and Nicholas we see:

1) Proof that Odyssey Boo Boo is recessive to Foxie (already known, but it saves us having to check the charts), therefore

2) Both Catherine and Nicholas hide either Odyssey Boo Boo, or something even more recessive. One of them (we don't know which, or it may be both) hide Odyssey Boo Boo specifically.

Flipping to Nicholas' pedigree (which is also Catherine's) we see both are offspring of Isabella and Phineas. Phineas shows Odyssey Boo Boo. So we know where Odyssey Boo Boo came from.

The odds for Catherine and Nicholas offspring ears are:

Foxie hiding Foxie, or Odyssey Boo Boo, or something more recessive than Odyssey Boo Boo: 3-in-4
Odyssey Boo Boo hiding Odyssey Boo Boo or something more recessive: 1-in-4

Here we see the 3-in-4. But notice we're referring to the shown/dominant not the recessive. That your box shows Odyssey Boo Boo was simply less likely. Call it poor luck. Trying again should (we expect) produce a Foxie (remember that luck can be poor again).

If you want a 'pure' line, your only choice is to break up Catherine and Nicholas and start two lines from them. Your primary goal would be to avoid losing the traits you want. Your secondary goal is to eliminate the Odyssey Boo Boo you placed into both lines by using Phineas.

As Ivy said, you want to use something more dominant than Foxie (the more dominant the better, Genesis would be good, preferably hiding something also dominant to Foxie, or at least recessive to Foxie but dominant to Odyssey Boo). And, yes, as she said, it will take many boxes across several generations.

RE: Karloff is dumb (and needs help with breeding) - Karloff Foehammer - 12-17-2014 12:52 PM

Hmm. as it happens, I have my fall collection kitties still. i'd been breeding them against a different pair of Nic and Cathy's siblings (s&p named Boris and Natasha...i like to give my lines a theme in their names so i can trace who is connected to who later on Tongue

)

maybe someone could explain why breeding something more dominant would help? I am having a bit of confusion over that.

"pure" may be a bit of a misnomer in this case. "reliable" is a better one, i think.

really, I want to use Nic and Cathy to make me a whole horde of little 9t foxie foxies with blonde whiskers. Tongue

i've been afraid of breeding outside of their basic line because i don't want to lose any of my desired traits.

RE: Karloff is dumb (and needs help with breeding) - Tad Carlucci - 12-17-2014 03:57 PM

The idea is to hide the Foxie ears behind something, then breed back to produce the Foxie again; only now it will be provably 'pure'

As you saw from the OP, if there is a hidden, it will eventually pop out to bite you.

Let's take a Genesis/BooBoo and cross it with Catherine.

1-in-2 will show Genesis, 1-in-2 will show Boo Boo. We don't care which.
1-in-2 will hide Foxie. 1-in-2 will hide OBB or better. We want the Foxie but don't know which boxes it's in. We need as many of these as we can get; hence using both Catherine and Nicholas to produce them.

Now we test each of those offspring to find which have Foxie. This is where OBB can help. We're looking for Foxie grandkids (great-grand of Catherine or Nicholas), but discarding them.

When we have a pair which are known to hide Foxie, we breed them together for 1-in-4 odds of proven-pure Foxie.

The complication is finding mates for Catherine and Nicholas which don't cause you to lose the other desirable traits.

RE: Karloff is dumb (and needs help with breeding) - Karloff Foehammer - 12-18-2014 07:24 AM

I think i see.

So, theoretically, in example 1 the cat is hiding blonde-streaked whiskers and illume shade (i hope), because Nic is showing the whiskers and Catherine is showing the illume shade, and both are recessive to white and natural respectively?

But because the new boxes are both showing OBB ears, and you can't have a dominant hiding behind a recessive, the cats are also both hiding OBB, is that correct?

If this is the case, would incest breeding make any sense still, or am i simply reducing my chances of everything all around? If back/cross breeding does make sense still, which would be the best direction to go, since siblings might cause additional problems?

Again, 100% purity isn't really the goal as much as "significantly greater than average" chances of pulling everything.

RE: Karloff is dumb (and needs help with breeding) - Tad Carlucci - 12-18-2014 12:33 PM

whisker and shade : remember only one can hide

ears : correct, but remember 'or more recessive' since there is also a chance of that

the only way to get'significantly better than average' is pure. back breeding, or careful line crossing as i used above can produce provably pure. strict line breeding can only produce 'apparently pure' .. in other words, it may be pure, and be 'better than average' or it may not and only be 'average' .. and you wont know which until it pops out to bite you, which can be several generations down the line.

remember .. there is NO effect from history. the parents either have or have-not .. the odds of a parent passing are always 50/50 .. once the box appears it's cast in stone .. 'pure' is the only case where you don't care because both are the same. 'pure' is still 50/50 (average) it only appears 100% (that is 'better than average) because you cant tell the difference between the hidden and shown.

RE: Karloff is dumb (and needs help with breeding) - Vrem Vaniva - 12-20-2014 10:20 AM

I'd want to look through unopened boxes, to see if there are some that you previously thought to be "dudders," but verifiably are hiding *only and exactly* foxie ears. When those do throw their foxie ears, especially if you have 2 of them together throwing foxie as their recessive, then you've got a solid unmixed ear. If those come from your foxie blondies with blonde whiskers, great.

Beyond that -- i second what Inia says about practical advice for carrying forward. It is correct, what you ask, "But because the new boxes are both showing OBB ears, and you can't have a dominant hiding behind a recessive, the cats are also both hiding OBB, is that correct?". You can never get Foxie ears from the Ody Boo Boo eared cats paired together, never. (You could get Foxie showing, only with foxie eared mates, or foxie-hiding mates, but the new boxes will be hiding OBB and it will come out again.)

When you "bury the trait" and pull it back out again ... You can do that with Nick and Catherine having separate mates, each with a super-nice mate with more dominant ears ... well, the boxes can be hiding Ody Boo Boo ears instead of Foxie. So it could become a long process.

Why would Nick or Cath be more likely to throw their shown ear when paired with , say, a soft-fold mate? ( No reason: at this point we're into the magic method. ) They will throw either the foxie-ear gene or the odyssey boo boo gene. So the resulting kitten box , showing soft fold, could contain a buried foxie or a buried ody boo boo, and you won't know until you breed it.