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Château Cocoa & White N2 fur is dominant to Aby Creme + recessive to Aby Ruddy - Printable Version

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Château Cocoa & White N2 fur is dominant to Aby Creme + recessive to Aby Ruddy - Aramis Gontineac - 08-25-2014 08:00 AM

Château Cocoa & White N2 fur is dominant to Abyssinian Creme and recessive to Abyssinian Ruddy :
[Image: 04819-3418fcb7-3754-4a6d-8666-93ea5a6aec9a.jpg]

Ysis hides Showshoe Bluepoint (baby Ysis 10) :
[Image: 04819-047a416b-cc3a-4d55-911d-1e906cdaad01.jpg]

Pika's most recessive baby (Jana 02) is a Chateau cat cocoa white N2 :
[Image: 04819-064acb99-5d5d-4509-bfa7-e2adac02a8cd.jpg]

Pika's hidden fur is recessive to Abyssinian Ruddy :
[Image: 04819-e2ba07b4-b678-4886-b6d7-bbd3a458c9a7.jpg]

Hope you have all the necessary info with those pics to update the charts. If not, contact me in IM or per notecard.

PS : I DONT WANT TO SEE ANY DRAMA IN THIS THREAD LIKE FOR THE GENESIS 4 DOMINANCE ORDER !!! I DONT GAIN ANYTHING BY SHARING MY INFOS, IT'S MY COURTESY TO SHARE THEM, SO PLEASE STAY NICE WITH EACH OTHER HERE Smile

RE: Château Cocoa & White N2 fur is dominant to Aby Creme + recessive to Aby Ruddy - Tad Carlucci - 08-25-2014 12:39 PM

Saga's charts, last updated 2014/08/20, show Abyssinian Ruddy > Abyssinian Cream > Cocoa & White 2 > Snowshoe Bluepoint

Ysis hides Snowshoe Bluepoint, or better (from the offspring chart above)
therefore Ysis 08 hides Showshoe Bluepoint, or better, from Ysis
and therefore Ysis 09 hides Abyssinian Cream, which can only have come from Pika

Yet, Pika has an offspring showing Cocoa & White 2.

Therefore either Abyssinian Cream must be recessive to Cocoa & White 2, which contradicts the assertion in Saga's charts, or Abyssinian Cream must be recessive to Snowshoe Bluepoint, again, contradicting Saga's charts.

RE: Château Cocoa & White N2 fur is dominant to Aby Creme + recessive to Aby Ruddy - Aramis Gontineac - 08-25-2014 05:57 PM

Exact, Ysis 08 hides Snowshoe, as prooven in a picture below. Therefore the Aby Creme gene can only come from Pika. As Pika , a starter, had a baby, with a starter mum, showing Cocoa white, this means his hidden fur is either Cocoa white or more recessive.
Ysis 09 has mandatory his hidden fur from Pika.
As shown on the picture (arrows), Ysis 08-13 inherits Snowshoe Bluepoint from the Mum side, and Pika's hidden fur from the dad side.
Pika's hidden fur is mandatory dominant to Snowshoe, as it is shown on Ysis 08-13. If it were recessive, Ysis 08-13 should have shown a Snowshoe bluepoint fur.
So, this prooves first that either Aby Creme and Cocoa white are dominant to Snowshoe, accordingly to Saga's chart.
But ! the dominance order between Aby Creme and Cocoa white is inverted in comparison to Saga's chart. And if you look at Saga's chart, one of those 2 furs has an estimated ranking ! Not a prooven one.
I have carefully checked all the kids of all the parents and gran-parents of Ysis 08-13. Grand-parents are all starters, so their hidden furs are quite easily detected and prooved. So far, all the first generation and even second generation kids from those starters confirm my theory.
Unfortunately, due to the age of both parents of Ysis 08-13, i cant back breed it with the parents. But as this cat hides other goodies, far nicer than its fur, so i will breed it with descendants from Pika, Aramis, Ysis and Jana (the mum of Pika's kid showing Cocoa White).
A little precision : all my starters, or bought cats have simple names, e.g. Ysis, Pika. Their kids are named according to the mother's name, first kid getting a 01 number after mum's name (e.g. Ysis 08). Kids of second generation still get the name of their mum, followed by a serial number (e.g. Ysis 08-13).

RE: Château Cocoa & White N2 fur is dominant to Aby Creme + recessive to Aby Ruddy - Tad Carlucci - 08-25-2014 06:41 PM

Yes, I wish they'd move the "estimates" out of the left column and leave it showing only proven facts. Traditionally, the other columns show the proven range, indicating the trait might be anywhere in the range covered in the left-most column. Unfortunately, someone decided to merge unproven traits into the proven column, so decisions based upon that column are no longer reliable, as your proof shows. Let's hope the new maintainers can correct the errors .. a lot of people depend upon the charts presenting accurate information.

RE: Château Cocoa & White N2 fur is dominant to Aby Creme + recessive to Aby Ruddy - Wendi Lavendel - 08-25-2014 06:44 PM

Charles and I are checking and have no information in Saga's collection (she kept all the proofs and passed them to us) about these furs -- there's nothing about the Cream/Ruddy/Cw2 so that info must have been from the time between us and Saga. We haven't been given any of the proofs from that time period yet (except the few that have been provided by other community members themselves but none of those were about those furs) so we have no clue how that fur was placed where it was.

This affects a lot of things in the chart - Ruddy and Cw2 are "estimations" and there are other furs that have estimated positions around those furs, so those estimations may now be wrong, etc.

We're going to take a closer look at it over the next day or so.

Once again, if anyone has stuff they sent in the last year or so, we would love to have it, even if it's showing on the charts already.

RE: Château Cocoa & White N2 fur is dominant to Aby Creme + recessive to Aby Ruddy - Aramis Gontineac - 08-25-2014 06:48 PM

Last precision, hidden fur of Ysis, Snowshoe Bluepoint, is a prooven one and cant hide a more recessive fur. I could have given that proof too and still can if requested.
The chart hereafter is a very , very, very small part of my database recording all the traits of all my cats, and you can see the trackrecord for Ysis's fur.

[Image: 0481a-7a6fd7c5-459b-4938-b7da-fa677346955d.png]

As for the names, I follow some rules to track-record them.
1) each gene has a ranking number according to Saga's chart (this presuming that Saga's chart is exact as long i have a contradictory proof)
2) each is followed or not by the symbol @. This symbol means the gene "could" be more recessive.
3) each gene is followed by "-name" : the name is the name of the cat that transmitted it
4) R-name = a recessive gene, but still totally unknown
5) color codes : blue = prooven genesis traits / yellow = supposed genesis +/- non genesis traits / green = non genesis traits, but not prooved at this stage / pink = prooven non genesis traits.
6) each trait has 2 colums, first one for dominant gene, second one for the hidden (recessive) gene. If you see 2 or more genes listed for a trait, this means there is a possibility that they could be inherited, but that i still dont have a certitude about which one.
7) all the genes shown in the database are "transmitted" accordingly to Mendelian genetic rules, to the kids and their descendants, including the "possibles" genes. This as long i dont have a proof that i can exclude a possible gene.
8) after each birth, i track-record the newborn kitten in the database following the rules mentionned above. And of course, if a certitude appears, the new info is reported to all the cats involved. E.g. if a descendant of the cat named Choco shows me an evidence that the recessive fur inherited from Choco is not Aby Creme, but, lets say Siamese Tortie, i will check absolutely all the cats that have the gene 46 AB Creme@-Lacta mentionned as a possible dominant or hidden fur. Checking of course that the new info is compatible to all the cats involved and modifying the data accordingly.

Well i hope that those infos show that i'm not a joker and that i dont contradict Saga's chart for the fun.

RE: Château Cocoa & White N2 fur is dominant to Aby Creme + recessive to Aby Ruddy - Wendi Lavendel - 08-25-2014 07:47 PM

Ok here's some notes about what Charles and I found using the info we had in the archives from Saga (actual proofs, not chart info) and the images shown in the first post above):

Proof that we do have from Saga that's relevant to this proof:
Aby Creme > Bengal Silver

First image:

Pika must be hiding non-gen fur X, otherwise Ysis 09 would be hiding it and Ysis 08-13 would be showing a gen fur.
Therefore, Ysis 09 (dad of 08-13) is also hiding non-gen fur X.
Ysis is hiding non-gen fur Y, and therefore Ysis 08 (mom of 08-13) is also hiding gen fur Y.

Ysis 08-13 has to be a product of (FurX) + (FurY) where one of those is Aby Creme and the other is ??

Second Image:

Next picture shows offspring of Ysis.
One of these is a Snowshoe Bluepoint. Therefore, Ysis must be hiding Snowshoe Bluepoint or better, and can't be hiding Aby Creme.

Therefore, in the expression Ysys 08-13 = (FurX) + (FurY)
- Fur Y must be Snowshoe Bluepoint or better
- Fur X must be Aby Creme (= Pika is hiding Aby Creme)

Third Image:

Bunch of Pika offspring, one of which is CocoaWhite2.
If Pika + Jana begat CocoaWhite2, then CocoaWhite2 must be hiding Pika's hidden Aby Creme
Aby Creme < CocoaWhite2
(contrary to chart info, but a pretty solid proof)

Fourth Image:

Ysis 09 = (Pika) + (Ysys) = Aby Creme (Snowshoe Bluepoint or better)
Tigra 08-01 = Tigra 08 + Ysis 09 = Ruddy (has to be from Tigra 09)
Therefore, Tigra 08-01 is Aby Ruddy (Aby Creme)
This solidifies the info that is on the charts about Aby Ruddy > Aby Creme.

So what we're going to do is update the charts to show that Aby Ruddy> Aby Creme > Bengal Silver, but we don't know where Aby Creme is relative to the furs in between Ruddy and Bengal Silver.
Also update the Cocoa and White #2 info based on the info from this proof and other proofs we found in Saga's archives.
This also affects other proofs that we'll have to edit since we don't have the documents in Saga's archives, so there'll be additional changes to some of the other items in that general area of the chart.

We would love more info on the Aby Creme and the Cocoa and White #2 if anyone has anything at all, even if it's old.
(08-25-2014 06:48 PM)Aramis Gontineac Wrote:  Well i hope that those infos show that i'm not a joker and that i dont contradict Saga's chart for the fun.

That's ok Aramis, it doesn't matter, it's just how things showed in the info we have; we don't have all the info about your cats, only what you show us.. so for working out things we had to say "Bluepoint or better" because we didn't have the proof that you had. It ensures that our work is accurate Smile

(08-25-2014 06:48 PM)Aramis Gontineac Wrote:  Well i hope that those infos show that i'm not a joker and that i dont contradict Saga's chart for the fun.

No worries, I don't think anyone thinks that Smile In fact, it's good if you find contradictions because we want the charts to be as accurate as possible! So don't be shy about bringing them up - we only have what Saga gave us, which is from a long time ago, and have found a few instances like this one where people had solid proof of things that conflict newer information that was added. So it's a good thing, don't worry!
(08-25-2014 06:41 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Yes, I wish they'd move the "estimates" out of the left column and leave it showing only proven facts. Traditionally, the other columns show the proven range, indicating the trait might be anywhere in the range covered in the left-most column. Unfortunately, someone decided to merge unproven traits into the proven column, so decisions based upon that column are no longer reliable, as your proof shows. Let's hope the new maintainers can correct the errors .. a lot of people depend upon the charts presenting accurate information.

Saga mentioned that to me when we took over: that we should take away the "blue" and either put them as yellow or move them to grey sidebars. Sidebars were originally for larger estimated ranges and blue was handy when there were a few blues in a row, but we don't generally get a few estimated furs in an unknown order like that (still happens with those sets of eyes, like the fruit eyes tho).

We discussed this a bit last week and got some advice from Saga on how to deal with it, and we'll be making some changes about this once we get settled with all the old-new info coming in.