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+--- Thread: Technical Breeding Tips and Advice (/showthread.php?tid=5162)
RE: Breeders Tips Tricks and Advice - Tad Carlucci - 09-22-2012 08:48 AM
Breeding a PROVABLY pure trait is difficult. The only trait you can do it easily with is the True Recessive (that is, the most recessive trait out there which, since it can't hide anything but itself, because there is nothing to hide, must be "pure".
Moving traits from one line to another is difficult.
Doing both together is quite hard. It takes planning, time, persistence, and a bit of luck.
So, of course, most of what we see when we go out to market looking for high trait counts is usually a mish-mash of fairly dominant traits mixed with a few fairly recessive. What we're seeing it the lucky results.
Not only are we seeing the lucky results .. we're probably also seeing the lower-quality lesser results. The sellers, of course, want to do better. So they're probably keeping the "good" stuff, looking to breed "better" and we're seeing their cast-offs.
Since "luck" (randomness) is the main governing factor for those cast-offs, what we'll see will be the "trend to the middle" .. there won't be much low-count, highly recessive stuff, and there won't be much high-count, highly dominant stuff. But there will be a LOT of middling-count, middling-recessive stuff.
The trick is not to look for FAST. Look for slow, steady improvement. Keep track of things like the "average trait count" for your entire stock. Dump the low count stuff, keep the high trait stuff.
RE: Breeders Tips Tricks and Advice - Kayleigh McMillan - 09-22-2012 09:00 AM
I myself am pretty conservative in my mix and match practise certainly if the result of it makes I have for example a Russian Black which really is a Balinese seal.
I keep my lines seperate and if I mix them this is because I need traits from the Russian in my seal knowing the result of that breed will be a seal wether it is shown or not.
Therefore I'm more a line breeder than anything else eventhough this takes more time and also if that means I release less.
RE: Breeders Tips Tricks and Advice - Devilness Chant - 09-22-2012 01:29 PM
Lately I have been really bad at mixing up my furs. And I have noticed that a lot of kitties out there have very recessive furs in their background. (yes I was once a purist lol) But to move the traits around you have to move the furs too.
But there is an up side to this.
If you have a kitty with say a bali seal in the background you can use any fur higher after that point. Inbreeding gets a little tricky but the seal doesn't always pop out.
I also believe it helps if the line isn't flooded with say bali seals. And I believe the farther back in the line the seal is, the lesser the odds of it popping back out.
When I first looked at my b tawny I just saw the seal that pulled her. (yes I will always use the "P" word) But after a lot of thought I see her for the fur she is. There is enough room between her fur and the seal that I can work with.
RE: Breeders Tips Tricks and Advice - anna Acanthus - 09-22-2012 02:45 PM
(09-22-2012 01:29 PM)devilness chant Wrote: ... And I believe the farther back in the line the seal is, the lesser the odds of it popping back out.
Well if the known hidden is seal, even if it hasn't shown for a few generations, i think it's chances of popping are (mathematically) exactly the same as if it was an immediate hidden, i.e. shown in a grandparent as opposed to it than being last shown in a great great grandparent for example.
RE: Breeders Tips Tricks and Advice - Kayleigh McMillan - 09-22-2012 02:55 PM
(09-22-2012 02:45 PM)anna acanthus Wrote: Well if the known hidden is seal, even if it hasn't shown for a few generations, i think it's chances of popping are (mathematically) exactly the same as if it was an immediate hidden, i.e. shown in a grandparent as opposed to it than being last shown in a great great grandparent for example.
Yes, this is the reason I'm so conscious about pure breeding eventhough I'm my own pain in the *ss with it.
I.e. I wanted to have an Oci Ebony silver and today I saw one with cream Lynx hidden which I didn't buy as I already own the Cream and I really wanted an Oci Ebony Silver.
I ended up buying a pure one at an auction for which I payed gladly more as I valued it higher because that was the fur I wanted.
I don't feel like fighting an unwanted hidden.
RE: Breeders Tips Tricks and Advice - Devilness Chant - 09-22-2012 03:50 PM
I agree with you Kay when it's immediate and you have no others to breed with it.
But here is the reason I think it does help if it's farther back in the line.
I got a kitty not too long ago showing porcelain. Dads side I've been breeding for about a year. The highest shade I've ever gotten in his line is glitter.
Moms side I've been breeding since around Dec or Jan. No shades.
I've back bred the lines, inbred the lines, never got porcelain. Porcelain only came from the lazy dazies so it didn't come from any of the starters I used along the way on moms side.
These are my kitties, not a mix of other ppls kitties for almost a year now. And remember all the inbreeding and back breeding would have pulled it out a lot sooner. If it worked like anna said mathematically. Yet this is what I got.
Fur: Balinese - Flame Lynx
Eyes: Gerbera Blue (Shape: Curious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Porcelain
Tail: Curious
Ears: Soft Fold
Whiskers: Silver (Shape: Guitar)
How many times did we get a trait pop out of nowhere that was waaaaaaaaay back in a pedigree. Yet the whole time we were breeding it never showed.
I do agree if it shows in parents grandparents then inbreeding is going to bring it out. I do think the math changes over generations.
I'm just suggesting that sometimes maybe we can shove that more recessive trait farther into the background so it doesn't always haunt us.
As far as buying a new fur with a recessive showing like the one Kay said. I would never buy it either, unless it had traits I wanted and i had a pure fur to breed it with. That is the only way I would buy a fur like that. Or if I wanted the hidden fur.
RE: Breeders Tips Tricks and Advice - Kayleigh McMillan - 09-22-2012 03:56 PM
I absolutely agree Dev, I shuffle them as well but I make sure the keep they eyes/ fur hidden or shown I expect them to have in the long run.
But your example is amazing really and I have seen this happening as well if such cutness kicks in I just scream for real
What an absolute stunner you have there!
Congratulations
RE: Breeders Tips Tricks and Advice - Tad Carlucci - 09-22-2012 04:31 PM
If the cat is KNOWN to hide (but not show) Seal Lynx (or anything else) the odds of it passing Seal Lynx to the next offspring: 50%
The Seal Lynx must have come from at least one parent. If both parents carried Seal Lynx, the odds of passing it from this cat: 50%
If the cat just passed Seal Lynx, the odds of it passing it again on the next box: 50%
If the ... well, I trust you can see the pattern here.
RE: Breeders Tips Tricks and Advice - Devilness Chant - 09-22-2012 04:47 PM
(09-22-2012 04:31 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote: If the cat is KNOWN to hide Seal Lynx (or anything else) the odds of it passing Seal Lynx to the next offspring: 50%
The Seal Lynx must have come from at least one parent. If both parents carried Seal Lynx, the odds of passing it from this cat: 50%
If the cat just passed Seal Lynx, the odds of it passing it again on the next box: 50%
If the ... well, I trust you can see the pattern here.
That's pretty much what we said Tad with the exception that I've seen it happen a lot more and a lot less than 50 percent. When push comes to shove it's up to Santa Server to decide what we get in that box.
There are some things we can do to help the Santa Server along because we can't expect it to give us just anything that defies the laws of recessive and dom.
And ty Kay, that lil boy will live a long life of blissful retirement when he's all done breeding thanks to permapet.
RE: Breeders Tips Tricks and Advice - Tad Carlucci - 09-22-2012 04:51 PM
HOW TO Produce a true "pure" Seal Lynx.
Given a cat known to be hiding Seal Lynx: call it Dad. Go to Saga's Chart. Select two mates for Dad. They must both show coats which are not the same, both of which must be dominant to Seal Lynx, and both must also be recessive to Dad's shown coat: MOM1 and MOM2. Using MOM1 produce boxes until you have a female (or male) showing MOM1's visible coat. Then, using MOM2, produce boxes until you have a mate showing MOM2's visible coat. Mate the male and female offspring together. Your odds of producing Seal Lynx are 1 in 4 (25%), per box. The odds of that Seal Lynx being "true pure" .. that is, both showing and hiding Seal Lynx are 1 in 1 (100%).
Given a cat showing Seal Lynx, go to Saga's charts and choose a relatively dominant MOM. Produce offspring boxes and test each which shows MOM's dominant coat, using mate SHOWING a coat RECESSIVE to Seal Lynx .. if a Seal Lynx appears, that parent (offspring from the one showing) is the one you need. The offspring showing Seal Lynx, and the other parent are available to sell or use in other projects. (The box is probably a keeper and might be good to breed back against that parent, if you'd like more of those more-recessive coats.)
Why two different MOMS with different coats instead of taking two offspring from the same MOM? Scroll back and read my comments on leaving room for failure from a week or so ago.
Why NOT use two parents, both showing Seal Lynx? Because, unless you can PROVE both are true-pure Seal Lynx, there is a chance (no matter how many generations you do this there is ALWAYS a CHANCE) that their offspring will NOT both show and hide Seal Lynx.
For those interested in learning to use Punnett Squares: I leave it as a good learning exercise to work out the squares for all of the above as proof of the process.
Definition: "True Recessive" is that trait which is most recessive. That is, there is no trait value more recessive that it can hide. To be expressed (visible) both alleles (the value passed from mom and dad) must be the same. If either is not, it must be dominant, and the True Recessive will not be expressed (visible).
For KittyCatS finding the True Recessive for most traits is a moving target. Because they add traits, we don't always know when, so there's usually a chance that a trait which be BELIEVE is, at present, the current True Recessive, we might be wrong.
There are examples of True Recessives: Small Pupil Size and Mysterious Eye Shape.
If you're working with a True Recessive, the statements above are WRONG and the processes UNNECESSARY. Simply breed two True Recessive cats together .. the results can be nothing but "pure".
Definition: "True Dominant" is the opposite of True Recessive. The True Dominant value is that which, if passed from either parent, will be expressed.
We know, because it's been given to us, that the "Starter Traits" are always more dominant than any other trait of that class. For coats and eyes, these are the "Genesis" traits. The True Dominant changes rarely (only once since the initial launch, so far). As a result, we generally have a pretty good idea (fairly conclusive) idea which it is.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to produce a provably "pure" True Dominant. The best you can hope to do is breed several generations, making an odds statement about the likelihood of it's being "pure", reducing the odds by 1/2 with each generation. So, for example, after 8 generations, there is a 1 in 256 chance that it won't be "pure" and after 16, a 1 in 65,536 chance. But, as I said above, no matter how many generations you do this, there is ALWAYS a CHANCE it won't be "pure".