Once upon a time, in the beginning of Kittycats, people did not know the breeding system. There was a “game” set up: people would gradually learn to find hidden furs, eyes etc. under genesis and see how many non-genesis traits they could get on one cat. Thus the 9T game was born.
Over the years, many more traits have been added, including many more Genesis traits. Gradually, over the years, all of these traits have been placed into a systematic dominance order. Currently Arwen Swordthain and I are the keepers of “the Charts”, which are created by community-wide submissions of proofs, rigorously tested and vetted.
In their current form, the Charts have different tabs for “Furs” and “Genesis Furs”, “Eyes” and “Genesis Eyes”, as if they were different things. It has been generally understood that the term “Genesis” simply denoted dominant starter traits under which KittyCats would hide the more recessive furs and eyes. They are not, however, functionally different things. A fur is a fur whether it is Genesis or not. An eye is an eye whether it is Genesis or not. And it was generally understood that the Genesis were dominant and that the Gen charts stacked on top of the “regular traited” charts.
As time goes on, there is less and less reason to consider the retired genesis traits in a separate category. Some people do breed them; it’s a quiet niche in the KittyCats eco-system. But these furs, which now number 32 retired gens, are mostly ignored, stuck off in their own chart where their relative dominance is misunderstood and not well-known. And, of course, not counted as “traits” even though they are manifestly breedable and are not used in the Pull-the-Hidden-from-the-Starter game anymore.
The question becomes, should we consolidate the gen and non-gen charts, so as to promote genesis breeding and greater understanding? There are pros and cons to this surely. It may be easier to consolidate the genesis eyes into the eye charts because there are fewer of them. Would more notation on the charts suffice to refer people to the gen charts? Or would people just ignore that?
Obviously some of my own biases on this show from the paragraphs above. Arwen and I have talked about various options. But we need to make the charts workable for the whole community.
What are your thoughts?
Personally, I think it's more consistent to have all the furs one one tab, all the eyes on one tab, etc. The fur and eye lists are already gargantuan; I can't see consolidating the gens into them would make it "worse." I think having notation pointing out where the line is between gen and non gen would help make it readable.
1) I've always gone with KittyCatS on this one: there are nine breedable traits. And there is no difference between Genesis and non-Genesis other than player tradition. So, certainly, merge the charts.
2) It's high time for KittyCatS to throw a curve ball and introduce some new trait values which are recessive to the now-current Starter (Genesis) traits and dominant to the retured former-Starter (Genesis) trait values. Assuming they haven't already and nobody's ever noticed because, hey, they're on different charts.
Tad Wrote:It's high time for KittyCatS to throw a curve ball and introduce some new trait values which are recessive to the now-current Starter (Genesis) traits and dominant to the retured former-Starter (Genesis) trait values. Assuming they haven't already and nobody's ever noticed because, hey, they're on different charts.
We would have noticed. I promise you.
Actually, when the colored tiger furs first came out, I said to Arwen, since these furs were kind of different wouldn't it be cool if these were super dominant and really pushed attention to the top of the chart. But it didn't happen.
It still makes me sad how much attention people pay to the super-recessive end of the chart. I understand the utility of cats that can "pull", but that doesn't matter at all for project cats.
Edited to respond to something Shannon said:
Shannon Wrote:I think having notation pointing out where the line is between gen and non gen would help make it readable.
If I were going to put in a line I wouldn't put it between Genesis and Non-Genesis traits... that's a line I'd like to destroy. It reinforces the idea that there's some difference between the gen traits and other traits. I would put a line between retired genesis traits and non-retired genesis traits.
If we're talking about legibility, we could put in lines every 50 traits or so just to break the chart into more manageable sections.
I like Ivy's proposal. Genesis furs and eye colors work the same as those which are not called "Genesis". Sequestering them makes people think they don't.
Ivy has mentioned that we spoke about this already and both felt it was appropriate to open the discussion up to those that use the charts, regarding any kind of segregation of Genesis/non-genesis/retired genesis traits, currently the available from starter Genesis traits are in fact the most dominant and stack nicely on top of the previous release, this however hasn't always been the case with the furs, currently they are colour coded for ease of generation reference as in the original 5 generations of genesis furs the dominance order is mixed so I would prefer we don't start putting a line under the current "live" furs as they may easily be mixed in the future.
I agree wholeheartedly with Ivy on not putting a line between Genesis and Non Genesis furs, like Ivy I breed Genesis furs going right back to the original furs and want to encourage that. I feel quite strongly that 9T is not always desirable as it overlooks some traits that complete cats far better than countable ones can but thats an entirely different thread
I agree with lines every 50 traits to make them more manageable if thats what people want.
On a side note, these are your charts, we just look after them, so if there are any suggestions for improvements in any way we are always open to listening, as long as its not something that creates a huge amount of extra work for us we will always consider different things.
In my opinion, genesis furs should be counted as traits. Period. They can be bred like any other fur and some are quite beautiful. I see no reason for them to be secluded in the charts or to not count as a trait. They have a breedable fur trait, or eye trait, it makes no sense to me at all to segregate them in any way. Who doesn't want a heart head cat?
If I remember the old Saga Charts as they were once known contained the Genesis Traits on the same page as the bred out traits, this was however when there was only one or two iterations of the Genesis Furs. Now my memory isnt what it used to be and might be playing tricks on me. However, I love the quick reference of a separate page.... that being said though, it would really not be much more difficult as they would be at the very top of the list anyway.
As for the separation as traits I completely agree, they are all breedable traits and many breeders breed specifically for starter traits in some instance whether fur, eye or one of the other starter traits. Therefore there is no separation in my mind and based on that they should be on the same page... Silver whisker color is on the same list as other whisker colors and yet also a starter trait so why not furs and eyes.
Think overall this is a great topic and glad you have looked for a general consensus from all breeders as I think it is something that some may feel differently about.
i will chime in here at how "genesis" traits were conceived.
at the time of creation of KittyCatS!, there were just a few breedables. Chickens, turtles, a few different bunny brands, a couple cat brands and horses. We had friends developing dogs and other things and people were all doing the breeding differently. One thing most had in common were the "starter" furs/traits, which were all one of the colors of a specific fur. (example a siamese seal cat, etc)
as i was working on furs, and eyes, and seeing how grid wide it seemed like the starters would have NO value, no matter how "Nice" they were, it bummed me out as i worked as hard any fur/trait, and felt it would be a shame that in weeks it would go from "oh how cute" to being so overbred no one would care.
unlike real life, where breeding takes months and you can't have hundreds of live animals... in a virtual world, people can breed very inexpensively and create thousands of the "same" thing. since people can sell what they make (if they want) it can set up a very glutted market. and while we have no involvement in the markets or secondary sales, we ARE mindful it exists.
kittycats from the start have always been "interactive pet cats that CAN breed," but were never set up to be a "breedable" that stands there having babies.
so back to "starters"...
so one day working on the very cute Chocolate Siamese, i thought... "i just don't want this or any of the other furs i am making ot be looked at as "throwaways." and it bugged me a LOT. haha. also i did NOT want one breed i.e. Siamese to perhaps have less perceived value cuz one of it's fur colors was a "starter." i saw that happen in one of the animals i bred and it really bothered me as i LOVED the fur pattern but NO ONE would touch it. even if it was "rare" it just had this stigma about it as 1 of the colors were "starters."
so then i had the idea... "what if our starters were the cats from which ALL cat breeds came? what if i made them look a little like all the breeds there are? a bit of pointed, a bit of stripes, a bit of this and that? what if????" and that little thought led to another and then the name "Genesis" came to me as it's the "beginning."
i pitched it to the team and they liked it.
i did too cuz i could put a lot of love into the Genesis "traits" AND let the users decided what/how they wanted to use them. i know some love to breed them and most like "shiny and new" - AND in my research, it seems our "traits" old and new have remained somewhat desirable by at least some people.
anyway, not sure if this little post (sorta long actually.) helps in your discussion, but thought for those who did not know, i'd put it here. we have shared this before in chat or in interviews, but not sure i have ever written it out like this!
love the passion you all have!!
Thank you Callie, its really nice for all of us old and new to know what your thoughts were when you created the Genesis traits and what they are now. I love the way they changed yearly and confess I have missed that, the change made the older retired ones more desirable in my opinion and I know a lot of breeders feel that way. I also enjoyed collecting all the new ones each year and testing to discover the doimance order within them.
I realise the last couple of years haven't been ideal but if you were wondering if we'd like to see next generation genesis furs then we absolutely would
No Pressure