KittyCatS! Community Forum

Define "good"

For some, "good" means "prices low enough, my cats sell".

For others, "good" means "prices high enough I make a profit on each cats sold".

And still others, "good" just means "is easy to understand".

We're in early Summer. As usual, two or three forces have come together. We've had an influx of new traits, which tends to push up prices for some and depress prices for others. We've had an influx of new players. And, well, it's coming on Summer and Autumn, and a lot of people would rather be outside than chained to their computer keyboard.

So, right now, we should expect to see a lot of complaints about how irrational pricing is. In a few weeks, that should settle down and we'll see a lot of complaints about how low prices are. After a short spurt of complaints about all the (probably not really) going out of business / fire sales, we'll cross into the new year, for a fresh round of complaints about how the new traits are ruining prices before we do it all over again next Spring and Summer.

Welcome to KittyCatS!

I guess I mean by good as where 1) I dont take a loss L wise with a kitten ( ie not less the the cost the feed the parents while said kitty was being made ) 2) Prices that make sense and are fair for my buyer and myself without crossing the line one way or the other.

the OP pricing structure seems outdated ive priced kittens at that level and often times people wont buy. Ive been lucky enough to sell off some of my unwanted higer traited kittens but probaly at an all to low price because i cant figure out a good price method as yet.

Yes i am new, and no i do not want to under price my kittens and drive down the market worse than it is.

You are completely right, pricing is all over the place at the moment. There has also been an influx of lots of new breeders who may price lower than those who are used to a higher priced market. I, however, am sticking to my guns. Unless the cat is very low traited or just isn't very exciting, I still believe that 100L per trait is perfectly reasonable. RARELY do I make a sale in my store but I find that 100L or more per trait pricing still seems to work well at the love shacks. The bottom line for "good" pricing in my mind is not to take anything less than what you feel the cat is worth and what you feel you have put into the cat. If you have 200 live cats then maybe you have enough boxes to sell at very low prices but I only sell one or two cats a week and I want a fair price for them. Just my two cents. And welcome to kitties!!!

The nice thing about L$100 per trait is it's EASY. Most of the posts in this thread make no sense to people who don't already have strong opinions. An easy system is one people will USE.

Leaving new traits, fad traits, super-recessive traits, and megapusses aside for the moment, the L$100-per system then just leaves the question of where the thresholds are. The KittyCatS Price Check group is all pleas for help and no answers except when a cat is clearly all common traits--then it's obviously L$100-per-trait, easy. Lots of members would love to help with more complex cats but they can't because they're not sufficiently tuned into the market to know where the thresholds are. For example:

- The premium for Toy size is said to be about L$100. Is it the same for Petite? How about Teacup? Bigger de Big? --This question gets asked a lot.

- Where should you start charging more for a tail? And how much? --Frisky? Boo Boo? Big Boo Boo? What about Curious, as that's quite common despite being more recessive than Big Boo Boo?

- Where should you charge more for a not-new fur? What about the ever-popular Russian Blacks, Russian Whites, and Bengal Snows?

- Where should you charge more for a not-new eye color?

- What limited edition eye colors should charge a premium, and how much, e.g. Lucky Irish Clover, the fruit eyes, the gerbera eyes?

- How about shades?

These are my thoughts:

In my honest opinion although I know 100L per trait is widely accepted by alot of people, I strongly disagree that this is a fair price for most cats. More so I think the only reason it has been accepted by so many is because its an EASY (and sometimes lazy) answer to the old question of "how much is my cat worth?". If you are a long term breeder, then 100L is almost an insult to all the hard work and thought a breeder has put into their efforts and Ill explain why.

Firstly, when first writing the Price Guide, my intention was never to dictate to the market what is the correct price when they are looking at selling. It was only ever to give newer breeders an idea on what is a very broad estimation on cat values in an ever changing market. These prices are not updated because it is a pricing estimation based on my opinion only. People can choose to follow it or not, but I follow these prices in my own shop, and still manage to sell cats. Granted I do not sell as many cats as I used to, however it is what I feel comfortable setting my cats for, as I know how many months of hard work, and food cost I have put into my breeds. I am not a breeder who goes and buys the latest and greatest trait. I do not not always have the most up to date fur, but one thing I will have, are unique combinations, solid 9Ts or cats with almost all traits in the background.... breeds that I have worked on over many months.

Now I also believe that when selling cats, the first mistake new breeders will make will be to buy two 9T cats at X amount, breed them, then expect to make a fortune on the kitten. Kittycats is not a get rich quick breedable....unless of course you are lucky enough to win the lottery on a starter cat and bag a brand new desirable fur. Mostly though, breeding requires many months of combinations and projects.

When talking about 100L per trait...of course that is fine, if you want to sell your cats fast, and also sell cats that you really didnt put much thought into...IE Buying two cats and breeding once, then offloading them into the market. I call these cookie cutter cats...cats which are produced in mass production just to be sold for a quick buck. A good example of this are the ebony silver with apple, or midnight sky eyes. These traits themselves are not bad in anyway. But because the very first Ebony Silver bred had these traits, people did not care enough to breed them out, they just wanted to breed the fur fast to sell off so they could get a piece of the ebony silver goldmine. So now we see an overloaded market of people selling these ebony with the same boring traits as when they were first discovered, and mostly 9T are going for below 800L. This therefore damages the ebony market as newer breeders will assume these cats are worthless. UNTRUE. Aside the fact they are one of the most recessive, if you put a little thought and effort into making them with a unique combination, these cats can still give you a nice return and little bit more. Same applies for any other trait/furs.

Eventually most newer breeders will get a feel for who are the long term breeders in the community and what is a good cat and what isn't and what are fair market prices for your cats, the longer you take part in auctions and mingle in the community, the more knowledgeable you will become. I don't think anyone can really tell you what a cat is worth, because it also comes down to sentimental attachment for the seller, uniqueness of trait combinations, the effort of breeding it, and the reputation of the seller/breeder. These are all important key factors when pricing your cats.

My main hope was the group and the guide, would get the community talking at least, and give the newer ones a help in the right direction of pricing, by exchanging knowledge from what they have seen at auctions, browsing the marketplace, and selling. Ultimately the decision is up to the seller. The best thing is do your research beforehand, get to know what is out there, and talk to friends and mentors in the community. Then set your cat for a price YOU feel comfortable with, and stick with it. Dont be tempted to follow the masses if you believe your cat is unique and deserves a better price. Dont be shy about it because really your time and efforts are worth the linden, and with a bit of persistence and patience you will be rewarded in the long run, and feel much better for it and not ripped off.

Well said Khea and I think most breeders feel the same way. Of course everyone has to start somewhere and some new breeders get a bad rap because they start off with some of those cookie cutter traited kitties. We can see that same example going with the new foxie salt & pepper and pandie ebony & white right now in the decline of pricing for those specific furs and the MOF ears. But take the foxie black and rounded fold, the prices are still pretty high. Because you don't see those traits out a lot at the moment. Sure I could take the hiders of those I have an sell everyone and make a killing, but that would bring down the market with an influx. But I would rather use them to help purify a line I have and trade off with what I need on my own project. So things like this also comes into pricing, cause you don't have to sell every 'awesome' trait you get or find.

The pricing guide is a good way to start off and then everyone should adjust to their own pricing table I think. I personally breed 2 lines which a lot of people don't agree with. A line is my public support line (cookie cutters continued) which started with selling at lower prices just to sell. Like most breeders I don't make a profit. I love breeding but even I need to pay for kibble. My private line you will not see, maybe offspring or duds, because I breed out and try to purify. But my pricing is based on my own table, and what I think or want to sell for. But my guide may not be the same for you or anyone else. My pricing table I personally have will not be the same for everyone. The steps to get to your own would be based on the same factors, which a lot of people will help with.

My opinion is that the 100L trait is a good basis to start with, but then you have to define your own pricing. There are so many questions and variables that I think a lot of people don't want to give advice on pricing in the price check group just because there is so much to consider and they don't want to start a big debate on selling techniques. That where I agree with some breeders, lines pulled off the cookie cutter cart and paired then when their offspring's sell for a fraction it brings down the market value on the original line. But on the other hand if you sell them you should expect that to happen to that line. Like with what was said with the Ebony Silver with Apple Eyes. So selling unique lines will raise prices because of the time and effort. So kitties with the same you pretty much see at every other shop will drop prices but unique kitties with unique combination of traits will raise them.

I also think anyone that is seriously wanting to start breeding their own line can ask for help with setting up their own pricing and stick to it. This community is friendly with so many willing to help. I have seen several breeders lately that started with cookie cutter lines and can see with a little help they are breeding out their own lines now.

Okay now that I've added my 2 cents I'm over my rant and will quietly go back to my babies.

(04-10-2012 04:44 PM)Khea Karas Wrote: [ -> ]

I often hear people completely lost when it comes to pricing their cats. Many will undervalue their cats, or overvaluing a cat that may not be worth that much.

When I made the KittyCats Price Check group I was hoping that by getting the community talking and sharing knowledge about prices, it would help to give people a better understanding about their cats' worth, and give the secondary market a better chance to remain strong.

I still see many newer breeders struggle when it comes to setting their first cats out for sale so I have written a quick info card about how to go about this and attempted to give a general estimation for basic cats.

Now these estimates are in no means set in concrete and are obviously a wide generalization of prices, as each cat is unique and therefore may fall outside these prices. I did not write this for people to look at and say "Ok my cat is 3 traits so only worth what it says here", rather it is a starting point for anyone who is newer and unsure when it comes to selling. Remember to always ask if you are uncertain before setting any cat for sale.

Anyway hope it helps those who are completely in the dark and all feedback appreciated

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QyfY...IxOb8/edit

Thanks so much Khea, Ill pass these along, and keep a copy of course for myself

? Amore

I think alot of people are frustrated right now. I price my kitties in a way I find reasonable, less than 100 per trait for the easy traits like white whiskers, but more than 100 for hard traits like Jade eyes. But who is going to buy from me when there's someone two carts down selling a 7T russian white for 200L? I try to keep a variety of furs out, but maybe I should just breed pandies since those are the only kitties that people are buying?

Much newer to breeding here, and haven't sold any kitties (meaning I've offered nothing for sale), and I am not chasing the latest popular furs like the pandies, although they are darn cute. I really appreciate nice trait combos on furs I like so I don't have an issue at paying a higher price for the time, expense, and effort a breeder put into creating this "special to me" one. Having become a bit of a pedigree junkie lately as I learn and absorb, I am really appreciating the care these breeders put into their cats - it blows my mind at times the patience, the art, and that always present element of luck of the draw (good and bad), lol. I guess what I'm saying is price your cats in line with the sweat and thought you put into them... and there are more than likely going to be people like me who will buy them.

I think it all boils down too doing your own research too, actually going around all the markets and going to the auctions and following group chats, and doing the hard work then you will get a good grasp of what a good price to sell a cat or trait for...... and educating new breeders and sellers about this. its all good having every thing handed to you on a silver plater but its killing a lot of the market. ((i will shut up now, rant over))