KittyCatS! Community Forum

Just to be clear Kayla stated that Confettis HAVE 4 furs not hide 4 furs and that Collection cats HAVE 3 Furs not hide 3 furs. Both statements are true and needed clarifying which I have done.

So for final clarification
Confettis have 4 furs these are Confetti shown & hid plus 2 Normal furs both of which will be hidden in a confetti offspring but will be the shown and hid in a Normal offspring. A Confetti cat will pass either 1 confetti fur and 1 normal fur to produce a confetti offspring or will pass 1 normal fur to produce a normal offspring. In the case of confetti starters one of the normal furs it hides WILL be genesis and the other what we call a traited fur.

Collection cats not just the Tiger Tiger! will have 3 furs The unpassable costume shown fur, the genesis fur we see in the pedigree as "shown" and the hidden traited fur.

boy, did I start a storm

some clarification:
a costume fur cannot pass. Think like mardigras -- even if you paint yourself green, you aren't going to have a green baby. Your baby will have the same color skin as at least one of your ancestors. So it is with kittycats. Costume furs don't pass.

a collection special baby is one time event -- two collection cats bred together for the first time to create a special costumed baby. This is a costume fur that the parents don't have and does not get passed on.

a special event special babies -- during a specified time period usually a week, any two cats can birth a special costumed baby, usually one to an avatar. Again his is a costume fur that the parents don't have and does not get passed on.

confetti cats are not a costume fur. They can pass. They have 4 furs that passes.

The new tiger collection, while the parents have a costume fur showing, they also have 3 furs that pass: a genesis, a regular non genesis and a tiger fur. Their baby's shown tiger fur is not a costume. They can pass it. A passing fur is not a costume fur.

From the lavendar tiger thread
https://kittycats.ws/forum/showthread.php?tid=31644&page=5



Because the tiger collection has 3 furs, it is significantly different than any other collection previously. Now it may be that some tigers from that collection only have 2 furs and others have 3 furs, I don't know. Certainly none of my tigers have produced a tiger yet. (very frustrating) However there are enough people showing that their collection cats have produced tiger babies who go on to produce other tiger babies to prove that some of them at least have 3 furs.

The tiger collection is a new paradigm. Kittycats did something completely different with them. Hopefully they will do it again. Having a special new fur that can reproduce is fun. But pretending the original parents only have 2 furs when their children show 3 different furs and can reproduce those 3 different furs along with furs from their latest partners and on down the generations shows that the original collection cats have 3 reproducable furs. Since I don't have a tiger baby grown up (or any tiger baby), I don't know if their tiger children have 3 furs meaning their babies show two regs and one tiger fur or if those tiger children have only two furs their tiger and one reg. I don't see charts proving it either way on the tiger children but people are only posting when they pop a tiger, not when they fail to pop a tiger so we don't see the other furs they pop. I assume that question has been answered already just I don't see it on a thread and honestly, I don't count an answer until I see it on a thread.

So yes I meant what I said. I was not counting the costumes on the parents. They don't pass. I was only counting the passing furs.

I also think since KC made a new paradigm we should find a new word for babies that can pass their cool furs. Not "costume" as they don't pass or "special" because that has it's own meaning too. If "couture" cat wasn't already taken, I'd go for that. Begowned, liveried, outfitted? No they don't fit either as they don't have that special feel that "costume" does. But darn it folks we do need a new word because we have something new here. Bedazzled? too bad that's trademarked

Kayla, the tigers don't have three furs.

They have:
1) a costume
2) a shown (genesis) fur
3) a hidden fur

That hidden fur may be a tiger color or it may not, the starters had them at random. Maybe that's where the confusion is coming in? But they don't have a hidden regular fur AND a hidden tiger fur.

(08-27-2018 09:43 AM)GiaMarlow Resident Wrote: [ -> ]I'm reading through your other thread as I have time, but since I only have a 25% chance to get the hidden traits, you're saying that it's more effective to breed the starters to a cat with more recessive traits?

You misunderstood me, I'm saying you only have 25% chance to "show" the hidden trait when you breed two starters together because that's when both throw their hidden trait. Plus you have a 50% chance that one throws a genesis trait and the other throws the hidden trait but you don't know that because it's not shown. That's actually a 75% chance their babies have a hidden fur but only 25% that you see it. The reason people don't breed for that 50% chance is because you don't know if it is the 25% where the baby has gen fur shown and gen fur hid. When you get gen shown and gen hid, that's when it's tough to get out of the gen mode.

The reason people get a "breeder" cat is that they can see if the starter cat threw their hid. There are cheap breeder cats. You don't have to get the most recessive one out there. So for example you get a trait with red tabby fur (very dominant), gold eyes, mysterious tail, curious ears, dusky frazzled whiskers. Those traits are dominant but they are also more recessive than the genesis furs.

So you pair the red tabby dad with the genesis cat mom and get a red tabby baby boy -- you know the baby has the genesis cat hidden fur. That's the most important thing -- you need to know if the hid has passed.

You can pair that red tabby baby boy with the genesis cat mom and get a (for example) toyger snow. It's still a 25% chance but you know when the hid is passed. If the red tabby baby boy and the genesis cat mom have a red tabby baby girl, you know the baby girl has the genesis cat mom's hid -- because both the red tabby baby boy and the mom have the same hid. Now you pair the red tabby baby boy with his half sister and you have a 50% chance to get the hidden fur shown instead of only 25%. The caveat, of course, is that if the hidden is the red tabby, you won't know it unless you've already proven the mom's hidden is recessive to that.

the genesis cat shows nine genesis traits. The odds of them throwing all 9 nongenesis traits are very very low. 8 nongen traits is equally hard. I've gotten a few 7traited or 6 traited cat from a genesis but it's still as rare as a gem. Most times it's between 0 to 5 nongenesis traits showing against a breeder cat. I have never ever gotten 6-8 nongen traited babies by throwing two starters together. Now you put two genesis cats together and the odds are even lower. Say one gen cat throws 5 nongen traits, and the other gen cat throws 4 nongen traits-- you might still be looking at a baby with all gen traits so 0 traits because they didn't throw the same nongen trait at the same time.

So if you want to find out what your cats hid, don't breed gen to gen. Think about how you will feel if you have had 12 kittens and all are genesis cats and the parents are 120 days so no more cats and you never found out what they hid. I have had that happen and it's not fun. When I started, I didn't know about breeding to a breeder cat. And there are plenty of cheap breeder with nongen fur, eyes, tail, ears, and whiskers -- you do not have to get the most recessive, just any fully traited cat.

(08-29-2018 11:12 PM)ShannonSpoonhunter Resident Wrote: [ -> ]Kayla, the tigers don't have three furs.

They have:
1) a costume
2) a shown (genesis) fur
3) a hidden fur

That hidden fur may be a tiger color or it may not, the starters had them at random. Maybe that's where the confusion is coming in? But they don't have a hidden regular fur AND a hidden tiger fur.

For example, in the picture you showed:

The red Tiger! Tiger!

1) Has a red Tiger! Tiger! costume
2) Is showing Genesis Bandit
3) Is hiding Tiger Lavender

There's no third fur.

"showing" is the problem here. We call it "showing" even though it is not what you see when you look at it. For most cats, it is, hence "showing" but for special collection cats, which have a costume: 'what you see is not what you get'.

(08-29-2018 11:12 PM)ShannonSpoonhunter Resident Wrote: [ -> ]Kayla, the tigers don't have three furs.

They have:
1) a costume
2) a shown (genesis) fur
3) a hidden fur

That hidden fur may be a tiger color or it may not, the starters had them at random. Maybe that's where the confusion is coming in? But they don't have a hidden regular fur AND a hidden tiger fur.

so there is no misunderstanding: collectible tigers and collection tigers refer to the original collection cats and not their tiger babies. I refer to their descendents as tiger babies as they are not collectibles, they are a breed because they can pass their fur.

so once your collectible tiger shows a nongen fur, none of their babies will get a tiger fur because that collection tiger will not pass a tiger fur? So the vast majority of the collection tigers do not have the ability to randomly pass a tiger fur baby and the vast majority will not have a tiger fur baby no matter what?

I read this on the collection poster "however they could pass a specially created colored tiger fur" and also on another line on the same tiger poster "however they could randomly pass the specially created colored tiger fur" to mean all the collectible tiger furs could pass a tiger baby randomly.

However, you are saying only a small percentage of the collectible tigers have and are able to pass the tiger baby fur and they can do it regularly because they only have the tiger fur as their hidden? Most have no ability to pass the tiger baby fur?

If ALL collectible tiger furs could pass the tiger baby randomly, then they all have that third fur. Even if they don't ever have the tiger baby because the odds are tiny, if they all carry the potential to have a tiger baby randomly, then the collectible tigers have that third tiger fur.

if the collectible tigers can only pass the gen fur and either a nongen fur or a tiger fur, then they only have 2 furs so they get either a nongen fur or a tiger fur. Also that means the collectible tigers will pass the tiger fur regularly to something more recessive.

This is an important difference. If only a small fraction have the potential to pass the tiger fur nonrandomly, then the text needs to be rewritten; Instead of " however they could randomly pass the specially created colored tiger fur", it should be more accurately, "a small percentage has the ability to pass a specially created colored tiger fur". The first statement infers all the collection tigers can pass the fur even if they might not -- because random means they can but may or may not. You are saying that first statement is untrue so a different statement would more accurately reflect that almost all cannot have a tiger baby which means getting a collection tiger that have a tiger baby is like getting a Mega from the vendor and if you get that kind, you can pass the fur regularly -- the difference being that you won't know if you got a good one or a bad one until after you spent a few months breeding.

I am not being confused. I am basing my perceptions on what I read on the poster.

Yes you are being confused.

Tiger Tiger ! Collection cats only have 2 passable furs and let's stop calling their costume a fur, it is not. A fur can pass, a costume cannot.

Like all starters, they have (below their non passable costume) a genesis fur and a non genesis fur. Non genesis fur *can be* one of the new Tiger ! furs (Lavender, Turquoise, Bubblegum, Chartreuse).

Period.

The wording on the poster / info NC has always been the same for new traits, the cats might potentially hide them or not. The new Tiger ! furs (Lavender, Turquoise, Bubblegum, Chartreuse) are like any other new trait introduced by a new Collection.

(08-29-2018 11:41 PM)Kayla Woodrunner Wrote: [ -> ]so once your collectible tiger shows a nongen fur, none of their babies will get a tiger fur because that collection tiger will not pass a tiger fur?

That's correct.

Quote:So the vast majority of the collection tigers do not have the ability to randomly pass a tiger fur baby and the vast majority will not have a tiger fur baby no matter what?

I don't think "vast majority" is accurate. I got a small handful of Tiger! Tiger! collectible cats, and about half of them were hiding a tiger fur. The other half were hiding "regular" non-gen furs.

(Edited to add, here was my actual breakdown. Of 11 Tiger! Tiger! cats, mine were hiding the following furs:
3 Turquoise
1 Bubblegum
2 Chartreuse
1 Chateau Grey & White No. 2
1 Russian Black
1 Balinese Chocolate Lynx
1 Siamese Blue
1 Burmilla Chocolate Silver Shaded)

Quote:I read this on the collection poster "however they could pass a specially created colored tiger fur"

They could... if you happened to get a tiger that had one of the new furs to pass.

Quote: and also on another line on the same tiger poster "however they could randomly pass the specially created colored tiger fur"

It was random -- you couldn't tell whether your Tiger! Tiger! had a new fur or not without breeding them.

Quote:However, you are saying only a small percentage of the collectible tigers have and are able to pass the tiger baby fur and they can do it regularly because they only have the tiger fur as their hidden? Most have no ability to pass the tiger baby fur?

This is correct, except the "small percentage" part -- I don't know what the percentage was.

Quote:if the collectible tigers can only pass the gen fur and either a nongen fur or a tiger fur, then they only have 2 furs so they get either a nongen fur or a tiger fur. Also that means the collectible tigers will pass the tiger fur regularly to something more recessive.

This is correct. If you go have a look at the breeding forum threads for the new furs, you'll see this reflected.

Quote:I am not being confused. I am basing my perceptions on what I read on the poster.

You're the first person I've personally spoken to that has interpreted it this way, but I don't know whether other people made the same inference. To be clear, though:

You buy a Tiger! Tiger!, and other than gender, what you get is a random cat that has:
1) One of several costume furs (Yellow, Lime, Rainbow, etc.) that is just a costume and can't be passed, and has no bearing on what the cat's actual fur is
2) A genesis fur
3) A hidden fur, which could be anything, including potentially a new Tiger fur (Chartreuse, Turquoise, Bubblegum, Lavender), or maybe even something new and unreleased

You can tell what it's hiding by breeding. It'll either pass its genesis fur or its non-genesis fur, and if you're lucky its non-genesis fur will be a Tiger fur, but if it's not, then it's not.

Is that clearer?

(Below: Offspring of one of my Tiger! Tiger! collection cats, La Verne, who has been shuffled around between a bunch of different partners for dominance testing. You can see from the notes that one of the kittens, Arcee, is the product of La Verne, who hides Bubblegum, and Rylee, another starter Tiger! Tiger! cat who hides turquoise -- for Gia's question, this is a case where I bred two starters together and got lucky, because neither one of them passed on their Genesis fur to Arcee, although they did pass on some other Genesis traits. This means Arcee's shown fur is Tiger Bubblegum and her hidden fur is Tiger Turquoise, so I'm sure her new owner is having a LOT of fun breeding with her -- if her partner has a shown fur that's recessive to Tiger Turquoise, then every single one of Arcee's offspring will be Bubblegum or Turquoise)

I think life with the tigers! is going to get so much better once the Costume cat LEs have aged out. This collection has messed with established breeders minds more than any other: a surprising number of people are treating them as if they are some kind of hybrid between regular LEs and the Confetti system, instead of being what they are which is the same old same old Collection LEs.

Once the Tiger! Tiger! LEs have aged out, people will just settle down to breeding what there is to breed which is bubblegum, chartreuse, turquoise, and lavender.