KittyCatS! Community Forum

(04-15-2015 11:58 PM)Winter Phoenix Wrote: [ -> ]

Me, I'll be standing in front of their shoppe with a THIS GUY SUCKS sign.

hahahahaha - i love your sign!

Ok, I was told I have to post here so I will, lol.

Honestly I freak out each time I see kitties advertised for 100-200 lindens and they say they are what?... 8-9 traited? I am thinking... "I am out of business now". I am thinking kittycats market is dead because if people have to sell their good stock for this much then means noone buys anymore, or that kitties have lost their inherent value.

Each and every kitty has a breading cost. I do not remember how much that is exactly (if I am not mistaken it is 270 linden or something like that) but on top of that it is reasonable to price each trait 50-100 linden, or even 200 linden per trait, and if the trait is rare/new/cute/or recessive it can go higher much higher.

The point is, it is normal to price a kitty at 400-700 or above and not normal to price it at 100 unless it is 1-2T.

A lot of people do not know nor understand but each pricing has or ought to have a rationale.

The pricing can and ultimate is arbitrary but most of us price reasonably and personally I try to stick to the 50-100 linden per trait rule because I try to strike a balance between being competitive and at the same time not be gifting my kitties to strangers.

I would prefer to gift my kitties and make someone happy than putting up a dirt-cheap price that would be as good as giving it away and at the same time allow some random person claim they bought my kitty for nothing.

Because I have a lot of limited edition kitties and saw things follow there the same downhill direction I want to make a mention on this too.

Again the pricing is not random. It has to do with the rarity of the kitty, with the history of buyers that have spent certain amounts of money previously to own those cats and also with the fact that older kitties are more valuable because the kittycats client base grew in time. So especially older limited kitties are even more limited in numbers. Some are even so rare that you can walk around SL and never meet another person with the same cat.

However when people are desperate to sell or in a rush to sell, prices do drop.

I think sellers need to be patient. I do not believe that less people buy kitties nowadays, on the contrary kittycats are more popular now. I am so happy when I visit random sims that I haven't been before and see people having kitties on diverse parts the grid, people that I understand are not hardcore community members but appreciate the cuteness of these virtual creatures.

I will end up saying this. New traits are more valuable. Cuteness factor matters too. And rarity as well. I try to give variety to people with my stock. Trying to make it possible for people to be able to get a kitty as close to their desired traits. I understand that the client may want a certain fur with a certain eye. So I try to provide a variety of combinations.

Last but not least I care to save lines or keep samples or a mix of traits that I think they worth saving because they become retired so the traits do not get lost and unavailable or for cuteness reasons.

The point is all kitties have a value and no kitty is dirt cheap nor should be. We only need to be aware of that value and how that comes about.




PS: Size DOES matter!! Some of us like it petite others like it Bigger De Big some even like it MEGA or... simply just normal :-) Have a good day all !!

When considering pricing, don't forget, each cat not only has a past-cost .. it has a future cost as well. And the size of your Cattery matters. Sometimes, even though you don't want to, you have to reduce your FUTURE costs by reducing the head-count. So you choices are menagerie or sell. There is a negative feeling toward the menagerie .. it simply feels better to pass the cat on to someone else than to send it in. So. it makes sense to put it out for 100 (heck, why not make an additional 25, if you can?), and avoid both the future cost and the negative feelings. Could you give it away? Sure. But, often, it's not just one or two .. it's 20 or 40 you need to get rid of.

Don't like that? Think it's better to simply give them to a friend for free? OK. But, remember, just because you didn't see a price, or money change hands, does NOT eliminate the downward effect on the market. If you think about it, giving those 40 kittens to friends for free has a far worse effect than selling them all for 100. But, sure, at least nobody saw you putting out a freebie-giver to complain about your low price.

I hate pricing cats, I really do. That may be why both my little shops are sitting empty atm. I've been breeding for a long time. I started shortly before the Lazy Daisies came out. I've seen all kinds of breeders come and go. I've seen the market tank more than once.

I've found a few new traits, and while it's really exciting, it can also be nerve-wracking. You get a lot of IMs, some of them not pleasant if they think your price or opening bid is too low or too high. You can't win.

Now, when I do rarely try to sell I don't ask myself what I can sell it for, but what would I pay for it if I were buying.

The market has changed a lot since I first started. The community was much smaller and traits..any trait, much rarer. Now really think about how many markets there are filled with shops, filled with boxes of kitteh probably very much like the ones you're selling.

With that being said, the most valuable asset a breeder has is their reputation but even more than that.. themselves, their time, talent, and personality. Give of yourself, build a network of like-minded kitteh people, always be fair and do the right thing, socialize a bit at auctions and other kitteh functions. Doing that is much more effective and appreciated than sending out cookie cutter spam every hour or so. One breeder suggesting you to another breeder is worth 1000 spams.

Now I must say, in my own mind, all my kitteh are precious and special and that's another reason they are hard to price or sell at all. So I have finally conceded that breeding kitteh is a money pit for me, and I've stopped trying to make anything back by selling. I may still sell a few if I can bear to part with them but I'm sure I'll buy two to replace every one I sell.

Such is kitteh.

Mreowph,
Noc

(04-16-2015 05:35 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote: [ -> ]When considering pricing, don't forget, each cat not only has a past-cost .. it has a future cost as well. And the size of your Cattery matters. Sometimes, even though you don't want to, you have to reduce your FUTURE costs by reducing the head-count. So you choices are menagerie or sell. There is a negative feeling toward the menagerie .. it simply feels better to pass the cat on to someone else than to send it in. So. it makes sense to put it out for 100 (heck, why not make an additional 25, if you can?), and avoid both the future cost and the negative feelings. Could you give it away? Sure. But, often, it's not just one or two .. it's 20 or 40 you need to get rid of.

Don't like that? Think it's better to simply give them to a friend for free? OK. But, remember, just because you didn't see a price, or money change hands, does NOT eliminate the downward effect on the market. If you think about it, giving those 40 kittens to friends for free has a far worse effect than selling them all for 100. But, sure, at least nobody saw you putting out a freebie-giver to complain about your low price.

To make myself clear:-

Total: 382 Cats (? 188 ? 194) | 3913 Boxes (? 1936 ? 1977)

I menagerie freely. If you people have negative feelings about this ask Callie and she will explain to you that the menagerie is cat's heaven where every kitty has an awesome time, food, play and friends.

I love going for my next menagerie tiger.

& If I give freebies it will be 1 of the 2. My dear friends that are hardcore community members and spend a lot of money on kittycats monthly or I give intentionally cats to friends that had no experience and knowledge of kittycats, advertising the kittycats and hoping to make an opening for more people to join in, even if casually, it is a plus.

However if someone happens to retire from kittycats and wants to donate his kitties to a friend it is an one off thing.

I have no regrets, I spent millions of lindens in kittycats and honestly I am not bothered much by all this, the market will adjust.

Well I'm not at the Nekktu level (yet lol) but am pushing 2000 boxes in the online cattery. My methods of handling cat pricing and what to do with them all vary, a lot is based on "what feels right". What feels right for me, may not feel right for another seller. If I am promoting a new store sometimes I put out a couple 50L cats and low priced gen megas to try to get new visitors. For other cat pricing I use the Kitty Calculator tool and also do area searches around the bid boards and love shacks, plus auction prices, to get an idea of what similar cats or traits sell for. I try not to go way above or below the market average, but things change so fast there is a good chance the price on box is not reflective of "today's price". If buyers IM me and ask for a lower price, that's a good thing because it gives me a chance to reassess a trait that may have dropped in value since box was marked. With my older breeders, I put some on the love tables but not *all*, many I will let age out and menagerie rather than sell months of line breeding and hard work for pennies. For my extra boxes, if they aren't special enough for the stores or the Marketplace, I menagerie them. Unless they come from a starter, then I hold them until I am sure there is nothing fabulous hidden.

As far as giving cats to friends, I think that is one of the main joys of KittyCats, sharing something special with someone you care about. I cherish the special cats my friends have shared with me, and we enjoy seeing our mutual grandbabies up on the auction block lol. I also like to occasionally give a cat or a special deal to people who frequently buy my cats, as a way of showing I appreciate their business and that I am happy they like my kitties

As I said earlier, bringing awareness via discussion is definitely helpful: in the past there have been newer breeders that have become more conscientious about their breeding and pricing decisions due to the same kinds of forum discussions we've had in the past. This particular discussion brings to my mind a plethora of ideas and questions for which I don't yet have answers, and continue to think about...

There are very few people willing to shell out big money for the latest traits, especially when it's not even completely determined where some of those traits are in terms of dominance. Some of the people who buy them want to do the same thing as the seller: breed out the trait(s) as quickly as possible to capitalize on the high price of a new trait.

Some others who spend a lot of money on a new trait do it just because they like the trait: I went crazy for bengal blacks and rounded fold ears when they both first came out and spent a lot of $L on them, but I put hardly any of either up for sale until they were way lower in price (not on purpose, I was just too busy with RL - I'm bad for starting a breeding pair and then getting too busy to monitor it). Then I didn't buy anything for ages, except for the occasional horny cat when I screwed up on breeding my starters. Then last night I bought a Scotty Fold on impulse and likely will breed the heck out of it and hoard all those adorable ears for myself and a couple of friends. If I actually get around to selling any, it will be by the time the trait has proliferated the market enough that it won't sell for anything near what I paid for it, and I will definitely take a huge loss on it like I did with the bengal blacks and rounded fold. But I've always been ok with that - I don't care about making $L, I just want to have the traits that are what I consider the cutest.

Is avarice the difference between the two? Do we only define it as the excessive amounts of money people are striving to obtain, or is the fact that I want to lie in the grass surrounded by bengal blacks with scotty fold ears a form of greed, also? Perhaps!

When I do buy cats, I tend to be a "loyalty buyer".. e.g. I'm more willing to pay more buying from breeders that have proven to be fair and trustworthy, and will pass up good cats if the seller is someone that has proven to be unfair or untrustworthy, even if the cats are cheaper. I can see from the latest posts to this thread that there are other buyers who do that as well. That's one possible solution to under-pricing.

What if I bred out the Scotty Fold ears, and then became like the two brothers with the winery that could easily charge over $100 for their ice wine, but don't because they feel everyone should be given an opportunity to experience the pleasure of drinking it? Would I then be one of the ones people complain about, by under pricing? Is under-pricing the solution to over-pricing?

Does it come down to intention? E.g. someone's intention is to make as much money as possible and someone else's intention is to surround themselves in cuteness and someone else's intention is to ensure that everyone has a chance to enjoy the cuteness -- which intention is better? I know most will probably say that the first intention, to make as much money as possible for themselves, is the less honourable. But what about the 2nd and 3rd? What if someone is trying to make money for RL expenses because they're not working? Is spending money to be surrounded in cuteness any different than buying yourself nice clothes or some fancy chocolates because you're lucky enough to have some disposable income? Is "sharing the wealth" too idealistic or does it make you a well-loved hero? I'm confusing even myself.

*shakes her head and decides to ponder this more later*

Is there bigger solution to the whole issue? I'm not sure.. One thing I have noticed though: as I and others have commented, this is a debate/issue that's been going on a long time. However, notice that the market hasn't crashed or died, we're all still here breeding, buying, and selling cats. Why is that? I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the KittyCatS team themselves are very conscious of and educated about the market issues that arise and have been doing things to keep the market going. For example, not just releasing new traits, but they retire traits occasionally. Also, the newer traits aren't always the most recessive - there's a mix of recessive and dominant traits in most new releases. Thirdly, they do listen to the community and have implemented many features suggested by community members (e.g. gender on boxes, shorter unpacking time, online pedigree features, etc). There's probably other things they do that I don't really pick up on because again, I'm not a business person

(04-15-2015 11:21 PM)Nino Heartsdale Wrote: [ -> ]P.S. Wendi - the 700L figure comes from the KittyCatS Breeding Classes which Liriel Garnet held and which I attended. She gave the breakdown of how she arrived at the figure and it seemed to be appropriate to me! I believe it covered the period of the entire process from birthing a kitty to breeding with it.

Hai Nino, I'd love to see these calcs if you have them! I think I do my spreadsheet a bit differently (and again, I don't know business stuff very well, just math) - I have it broken down monthly because I will sometimes move breeding pairs and their boxes from one location to another, depending on what other projects they might be related to (I have both mainland and some private regions and the costs for those are different, so land costs become variable instead of fixed)... also for some cats, if I purchased one or both parents I include that cost also. And I think someone else mentioned future costs and menagerie - I also count menag boxes (some I menag myself, some I sell to others), etc. Anyway, that's off topic mostly, I was just really curious to see how other people calculated those things!

I was told to post again, LOL.


Love 5 - 140
Love 10 - 280
Catnap - 100
Break Up - 200
Energy 5 - 110
Energy 10 - 220
Get Well - 290

1 food - 170
5 food - 850 (no discount)
10 food - 1600 (1700 - 100 L discount)
20 food - 2980 (3400 - 420 L discount [149 L per bowl])

1 milk - 140
5 milk - 700 (no discount)
10 milk - 1350 (1500 - 50 L discount)
20 milk - 2600 (2800 - 200 L discount [130 L per bowl])

1 kittycat's upkeep for 1 month = 279 L

20 cats per month food+milk = 5580 L = ~22.5 USD
40 cats per month food+milk = 11160 L = ~45 USD
60 cats per month food+milk = 16740 L = ~67 USD
80 cats per month food+milk = 22320 L = ~89 USD
100 cats per month food+milk = 27900 L = ~111 USD

558 L per month per pair for food+milk = about 2.5 USD

Food+milk cost to make 1 kitten box per 7days per pair for food+milk = 140 L (rounded up)

Menagerie 1 cat/kitten box = 50 Kitty Bucks = 20 L
Menagerie 5 cats/kiten boxes = 250 Kitty Bucks = 100 L
Menagerie 10 cats/kiten boxes = 500 Kitty Bucks = 200 L




Data compiled by Theodore Nacht 6/26/11.

(04-15-2015 11:21 PM)Nino Heartsdale Wrote: [ -> ]Hai Nino, I'd love to see these calcs if you have them! I think I do my spreadsheet a bit differently (and again, I don't know business stuff very well, just math) - I have it broken down monthly because I will sometimes move breeding pairs and their boxes from one location to another, depending on what other projects they might be related to (I have both mainland and some private regions and the costs for those are different, so land costs become variable instead of fixed)... also for some cats, if I purchased one or both parents I include that cost also. And I think someone else mentioned future costs and menagerie - I also count menag boxes (some I menag myself, some I sell to others), etc. Anyway, that's off topic mostly, I was just really curious to see how other people calculated those things!

Oh Wendi I am so sorry - I don't have the calcs. I just remember the final figure. Maybe there is somebody else out there who attended that class and has the calculations?

(04-16-2015 08:02 AM)Malayaa Resident Wrote: [ -> ]Well I'm not at the Nekktu level (yet lol) but am pushing 2000 boxes in the online cattery. My methods of handling cat pricing and what to do with them all vary, a lot is based on "what feels right". What feels right for me, may not feel right for another seller. If I am promoting a new store sometimes I put out a couple 50L cats and low priced gen megas to try to get new visitors. For other cat pricing I use the Kitty Calculator tool and also do area searches around the bid boards and love shacks, plus auction prices, to get an idea of what similar cats or traits sell for. I try not to go way above or below the market average, but things change so fast there is a good chance the price on box is not reflective of "today's price". If buyers IM me and ask for a lower price, that's a good thing because it gives me a chance to reassess a trait that may have dropped in value since box was marked. With my older breeders, I put some on the love tables but not *all*, many I will let age out and menagerie rather than sell months of line breeding and hard work for pennies. For my extra boxes, if they aren't special enough for the stores or the Marketplace, I menagerie them. Unless they come from a starter, then I hold them until I am sure there is nothing fabulous hidden.

As far as giving cats to friends, I think that is one of the main joys of KittyCats, sharing something special with someone you care about. I cherish the special cats my friends have shared with me, and we enjoy seeing our mutual grandbabies up on the auction block lol. I also like to occasionally give a cat or a special deal to people who frequently buy my cats, as a way of showing I appreciate their business and that I am happy they like my kitties

Ahh yes! I can't tell you how many nice cats I have given to friends and new people needing to get started. But Im sure countless people out there can! I do believe in helping newcomers to this and i do try to "be the change i wish to see in the world" as is in my tagline. But No, I do not allow market crashing at my auctions or on my sim and anyone who has been to my auctions knows that I haven't the slightest compunction about IM'ing a seller and informing that the start is way too low...they always have the option to either raise it a bit and still be a real bargain, or they may take back their cat or change it. No harm, no foul. They not only understand my reasons, they Appreciate them once they think on it for a minute. And when they sell their cat and get a fair price they are even happier!

But at the end of the day, giving cats to help those starting out, or lending them my good cats to help them make a good foundation, is Not the same as selling an aby dark dry olive for 700L so that those who pay my land fees while i undercut them so bad they cant sell their cats! And thats what it comes down to besides market crashing, its having someone pay me for the privilege of having me undermine the reason they are there...to sell their kitties.