KittyCatS! Community Forum

Instructional Breeding: getting out of double genesis fur and keeping your super recessive trait

Helping Brittany made me realize that it might help people to learn how to get out of the genesis fur-genesis fur problem and keep the super recessive trait they are chasing. It also serves as a lesson in uptraiting -- how to go from a more dominant to trait to a recessive trait.

Each day I will post an image in what happened from the first mistake and discovery to the baby I was very happy with. So often when we give advice or explanations, people don't see the mistakes we made along the way and I think it is important that they do (hopefully so they can avoid our mistakes

(And I really want to show the finish first so you won't think "what an idiot" but honestly eventually all of us will probably make these mistakes)

Reminder (chart listed updated 8/26/18)
Use the Forum-Based Charts
Fur
Confetti Furs
Genesis Furs
Eyes
Genesis Eyes
Everything else

---

-------

This story begins July 23, 2014 when I got this baby



I paired Cubby with Stratus who is a special edition kittycat that has a starter underneath.

They had a baby with mostly genesis traits but also Light Wave whiskers.

Mom Cubby had Light Wave whiskers

Since it is
There are 2 rules in breeding. First rule is
1 from Mom + 1 from Dad = 2
1 + 1 = 2

2nd rule is
Dom is on top
Dominant furs always show
I can see baby CubbyStratus got LightWave from Mom
That leaves dad for the hidden whisker.

Because Dom is on top
Dad has to hide LightWave or more recessive.

--- story to be continued tomorrow, same time, same channel ....

Okay, I can't stand it. Waiting until tomorrow to tell you my biggest mistake in Kittycats breeding is like fingernails on a chalkboard. (and no, you dufus, it is not the biggest mistake in my life. There is RL, you know).

And I can hear those of you in the audience yelling breed the babygirl to her daddy Stratus. Yeah, right. And you're the same folks at a horror movie yelling "don't go up the stairs!" Sheesh! what do you want? a 15-minute movie. Of course, I didn't breed the daughter to the dad. This is a morality tale Kittycat style and we have to make it last the full two hours.

So since we are not breeding the daughter to the father which would be the smart thing to do (Go, go, go, Kittycest!), onward with my big mistake. (and shut up you in the peanuts gallery. Like you never did this!)

I am sure I had a good reason at the time for what comes next. I just wish I could tell you. Honestly, I would tell you if I remembered....

The heroine starts up the stairs (dun dun dun)

This is what happened next:

On July 30th, I bred Oprah who had a generic fur to Stratus



So I bred shown genesis fur to a shown genesis fur

Stratus had Genesis Smokey IV showing
Oprah had Genesis Domino III showing

TigerLily had Genesis Domino III showing which she got from Mom
1 from Mom + 1 from Dad = 2
1 + 1 = 2
Dom is always on top
So mom threw her shown fur which is #1 and it was dominant so it showed.

So the hidden fur has to come from that Dad. Here is where I made a mistake (besides the one of breeding Oprah to Stratus)

I assumed the hidden fur from Dad was thrown and that there was a hidden non-generic fur under there.

I know you are shaking your head. Yeah, like you've never had a brain fart. Happens to all of us.

But there were good things I learned

Baby TigerLily shows Mysterious Ears.
1 + 1 = 2, Dom is on top
Dad shows Genesis ears. So Dad's shown did not get thrown because Genesis is most dominant and always shows

Mom shows Ody Boo boo Ear. Since the most dominant ear shows, Mom's hidden has to be recessive to Ody Boo Boo. Ody boo boo is recessive to Mysterious so the Baby TigerLily's shown ear cannot come from Mom's.

I found Dad's hidden ear it is recessive to Dad's shown and dominant to Mom's shown. Dad has Mysterious hid (Yay! oh no. Oh, pooh! Mysterious is so dominant, I hate that ear. Darn it).

1+1 = 2
Mysterious from Dad + 1 from Mom (has to be Ody boo boo or more recessive)
the other good thing is that we lost the genesis from Dad. We can only get 1 from Dad. If we got the hidden Mysterious, we lost the shown Genesis from Dad. This Baby no longer has Genesis ears any more. It is Mysterious + 1 from Mom.

Whisker color is White
I go through the same reasoning as above
White has to come from Dad. The most dominant Mom has is Black. Black is recessive to White. So Dad has White.
1 + 1 = 2
White from Dad + Black or more recessive from Mom
A question for you in the Peanut gallery.
Do I still have Silver from Dad Stratus or did I lose Silver whisker color?

Remember we are chasing the whisker shape. So I already know Dad's whisker shape is recessive to Light Wave since we already got Light Wave before on her sister. What I don't know if it is Light Wave or something more recessive. ... dun dun dun

Ok, next page is tomorrow
(Also if you're going to start telling people 1 + 1 = 2, say it's Kayla's rule 1 + 1 = 2 or something. Or you can say Kayla's rule, Dom is on top (picture that, a Genesis Domino sitting on a Dark Aby). If I am going to bare my soul on my worst mistake, I should get my name on a nice easy rule to remember. I'm just saying. You think this is easy? Hah! Pours myself another bit of scotch. This required courage (Dutch courage, but who's counting? .... Hiccup, oops, excuse me. Aaawwww, sh.... Glares at the empty glass. Picks up the bottle to sip from [you really think I'm sipping... there's this bridge I'd like to sell... Hey, don't judge me. I need lindens for kibble... and scotch])

Onward with my tale

Now we know what I should have done was birth the Cubby-Stratus daughter and mate her back to Stratus. But we all know I didn't. What I did was birth the Oprah-Stratus daughter, now named TigerLily.

So let's recap what we know

Stratus is
Genesis - Smokey IV-----Genesis Sunshine (curious/big)-----natural-----genesis-----genesis-----silver-----guitar
the hids we know right now are
Fur unknown-----eyes unknown-----tail unknown-----mysterious ear -----White/Light Wave or better

TigerLily is
Mom's Genesis Domino III-----Dad's Genesis Sunshine (curious/big)-----Dad's natural-----Dad's genesis-----Dad's mysterious-----Dad's white/ Mom's fussy

So I put them together once TigerLily reached consenting age (14 days for kittycats)
and I got this



Now at the time I thought TigerLily had dad's hidden nongenesis fur, so I thought Dad threw his shown fur on this baby. This baby generally sucked rocks --- all genesis traits -- but ..... dun dun dun

The hidden whisker shape was Odyssey FrazzyWave!!!! OMG! I was so happy.

Stratus had Odyssey FrazzyWave hidden. Happy dance. Happy Dance. And so does TigerLily.

. . . . . Lionel also showed genesis traits. He ended up with double genesis fur. The eyes, ears and whiskers were also genesis. He could have ended up double genesis eyes too since TigerLily and Stratus shared the same eyes.

You do a breedback child to parent when you think you have something more recessive than anything in your Cattery.

At the time the most recessive whisker shape I had was Light Wave. There was no other way to bring out that Odyssey FrazzyWave.

. . . . . . By doing the Parent-Child w/same Parent hidden (which I knew she had Dad's hidden since she showed Mom's shown), then I could get a super-recessive trait showing.

Of course if you do this with starters, you end up with double genesis traits on the babies fairly often due to breeding back a starter's baby which usually show a few genesis traits from their starter parents.

. . . . . So I bred TigerLily to Stratus a couple more times trying to get the hidden nonexistent nongenesis fur out. And I got their son Lionel on 8/28



I got Odyssey FrazzyWave again. Plus he was a teacup which I adore. And he also showed chop chop tail. But he showed Mom's genesis fur.

Since Tiger Lily got a genesis tail from her Dad Stratus here and (chorus here)
1 + 1 = 2
Her hidden tail has to come from Mom. Mom shows Tiger Curl. Tiger Lily's hidden tail has to be Tiger Curl or more recessive.

Chop Chop is dominant to Tiger Curl so cannot come from TigerLily. It is Stratus's hidden tail. Lionel's tail Chop Chop come from Stratus so he gets mom's hidden tail because her Genesis tail is now lost. Since her Genesis tail is dominant to Chop Chop, it did not pass because (chorus here)
Dom is always on top

Things are definitely on an upswing now that I know I have Frazzy.

Great thread Kayla.


"Consenting age"
LOL'd irl

So onward goes the story

So to recap:
1. I have OFW (have as Odyssey FrazzyWave) on two siblings
2. I could have double genesis on a number of traits including the fur

I needed a way to keep the OFW and lose the genesis traits.

Normally most people boink the siblings

In this case, I thought it was better to boink the siblings with other cats so I would be sure to get non-genesis hiddens. (although I did try a couple matings sibling to sibling but they didn't work out so well. This hooking up with nonfamilial cats worked much better for me)

Talia's line didn't work out well so I closed it pretty quickly. Lionel did better for me so we will follow 2 of his children.



I mated Lionel with Caralynne. My reason was because her shown was Light Wave, I wanted to see if her hid was Swanky or more recessive. Lionel and Talia with OFW were the go-to people to check if anything was behind my most recessive whiskers while I tried to get the OFW better traited.

What I liked about Toy Theresa, born 9/19/14, was that I got non-genesis tail, ears, and whiskers

The breakdown on Toy Theresa went

Fur: Genesis Smokey IV
Damn! this is where I learned Lionel had a double Genesis fur. His shown was Genesis Domino III and his hid was Genesis Smokey IV. I knew that because Mom had Abby Ruddy so no way could she give a genesis fur. Crap on beans.

Eyes: Strawberry Bellini
Well that was better than expected but who gave it? Mom or Dad? don't know. That eye was recessive to anything either was showing so could be either one. But, hey, at this point, I'll take what i can get.

Tail: Shorty
Lionel shows Chop Chop while Caralynne showed Plush. Shorty is Dominant to Chop Chop so can't come from Lionel. He can only throw Chop Chop or more recessive. Shorty has to be Mom's hidden as can be seen with Maternal Grandfather Sharpie.

Ears: Mysterious
Caralyne shows Mysterious so probably came from her. There is, of course, the possiblity that Lionel has mysterious too. We'll have to find out for sure later.

Whiskers: Black
Caralyne shows Black so probably came from her. Again, it's possible that Lionel has black too.

Whisker shape: Light Wave
That came from Caralynne. We know Theresa has OFW hiding from Lionel because he is double OFW and that is all that he can pass.

This baby is a marked improvement over Lionel. Almost all the genesis traits are gone and we know for sure that the fur has a non-genesis fur hid.

---

I said we would follow two of Lionel's babies. Since he was good about throwing the other traits, i birthed the babies that had non-genesis eyes, tail, ears and whiskers. He was pretty good about that. His sister Talia not so much which is her line got shut down.

Lionel also gave me Bridgetta on 12/12/14.



I know its a girl. They had a brother, Noregard, that I also birthed with the intent to pair him with Theresa too but since one of his kids got Dreamy whiskers found unexpectedly on a mom I was checking her hidden on, his line went on a Dreamy tangent. So Noregard and his children do not figure in this tale. Sometimes that happens. You have a plan but you find something cool and you create a new plan.

So Bridgetta's mom, Machayla, I bought because she had Tapestry Reef eyes. And as you know I used Lionel to check hidden whisker shape on my girls. Had to, you never know what you might find. With Machayla, I found she had Light Wave hid which was better than I expected.

Like Theresa and Noreiga, I birthed Bridgetta because she showed Most traits.

Fur: Said it all before. Came from Lionel. Hid from Machayla.
Eyes: Tapestry Reef has to come from Mom
. . . . . by now, I have found that Lionel had Strawberry Bellini hid which was the shown eye for Theresa.
Tail: Chop Chop came from Lionel. Machayla gives us her hid.
Ears: Mysterious. Obviously this is Lionel's hid as Machayla had Pointed Soft Fold as her most dominant ear. Machayla passes PSF or her hid.
Whiskers: White. This is Machayla's shown and comes from her.
. . . . . to be fair, by this time I have found out that Lionel's hid is blonde-streaked
Whisker shape: Light Wave. the hid is going to be Lionel's OFW

So I have gotten rid of the genesis on the traits for Theresa and Bridgetta. And I only had one problem remaining: the fur. And both of them hid a nongenesis fur. So things are looking up. (Where's the boy?, you say. He is coming)

So our Saga continues for those of you still sticking with me. I said I wasn't going to talk about Noregard, but concentrate on his sisters. I lied. They are a dynasty so his fate plays a part too.

Well, I did breed Theresa with her brother Noregard. You have a 25% chance of getting a fur if both throw their hiddens. I got this



Now what you should do is keep trying. Somewhere between 1-8 times you will eventually throw a double hidden. It is after all a 25% chance. However, I stared at Millman, another genesis fur, and thought, "To ____ (bleeped out for the faint of heart)____ with this." You have to understand Stratus, the ancestor who started this, against all odds, threw his genesis fur 10 times and the few times he didn't I had paired him with another genesis fur and they threw theirs. Only once did he throw his hidden fur, Chateau Cat - Cocoa & White No. 2 and of course that one time he threw guitar whiskers. So this family by this time had me throughly disgusted with their propensity to NOT THROW THE BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP NONGENESIS FUR. But I was going to keep the bleep bleep bleep OFW whiskers that I had worked so hard for.

So after one experimental night in their youth, the siblings went their seperate way. And seperately they had children with a variety of furs (they were wild and had multiple partners). Luckily Noregard hooked up with Carolyn, a gorgeous Black Bengal and their child gave me hope for the family.



Teacup Basil was born and he had Dreamy whiskers from his mom Carolyn. I rubbed my hand in glee. He also had a Abby Ruddy fur. Not my favorite fur to be sure but I was understandably ecstatic. Dreamy with OFW hid. So I set him off to try to get a few dreamy preferably on Black Bengals which I loved.

Now we are back to the sisters. It is not long now. The finish is in sight. I hear your sigh of relief. It was a bit of a long family saga, wasn't it?

Toy Theresa was ornery. She took after her grandfather and grinned as she gave me genesis fur after genesis fur. She was supposed to give me her hidden about 50% of the time -- nuh uh. She gave it to me every 4th time. I was glad I didn't keep her with her brother or I would probably have given up. On his own, he was great and handed out his hidden right and left. Still, this I knew. Her kids had OFW hid and so did his kids. Eventually I hooked her up with Paden, another Black Bengal. And I got something I liked:



Okay, we are closing to the end of the tale. We got a Coffee baby.

Coffee is dominant to Black Bengal, Dad's shown so it had to come from Mom. Finally, Theresa's hidden! She had actually also thrown it on the child before this which made me think her Genesis Fur tantrum was over. So in Macintosh the genesis fur is lost forever. Remember Dom is on top and the rest is lost. Thank Goodness! About damn time.

Fur: Coffee from Mom, Hidden from father: Black Bengal or more recessive. Take a look at Dad for a moment. Do you see his dad? Uh, huh Grandfather Teacup Basil is Noregard's son. I knew Basil had Dreamy shown, OFW hid and was hoping he passed OFW to Paden. I wanted OFW on te Bengal. Yet OFW on a coffee fur was great because too much or little coffee can make you just as jaggy as those whiskers. Kind of how I was feeling after this family's shenanigans.

Eye: Ody Bell. It is recessive both to Mom and Dad's shown eye so could come from either.

Tail: Shorty. Is Shorty dominant or recessive to Tiger Curl? Yep, dominant. Besides you see it on Mom. So yes, it's Mom. Tiger Curl or more recessive hid gifted from Dad.

Ears: Mysterious. Mom again. So Odyssey Boo boo or more recesive hid from Dad

Whisker color: Black. Could come from either. So could be a double Black (shown and hid) or Black with more recessive hid.

Whisker shape: Dreamy. We know Theresa has Light Wave shown and OFW hid and she can only have 2 whisker shapes so Dreamy has to come from Dad. Paden had Plush shown from his Mom so Dreamy is his hid from his Dad Basil. Which means that Basil did not pass OFW to Paden. I was happy with Dreamy so that was fine.

But Macintosh was a delicious Coffee with Dreamy hid and OFW hidden. I knew this because
1+1 = 2.
Since he can only have 2 and he got Dreamy from Paden, he had to get either Lightwave or OFW from Theresa. He couldn't have gotten Light Wave because Dreamy shows. Light Wave is dominant to Dreamy. The most Dominant always shows. So anything more dominant than Dreamy cannot pass and is lost in Macintosh's line from here on out. That leaves OFW recessive to Dreamy. So I knew this Dreamy baby hid OFW. Plush and LightWave are now lost in Macintosh. Anything dominant to Dreamy did not pass and Macintosh cannot carry it.

The Math

When I told someone 1 + 1 = 2, they said it was more like 1/1 + 1/1 = 2 because 1 mom-shown/1 mom-hid + 1 dad-shown/1 dad-hidden = 2
Still you need to remember, since each parent can only pass 1, whatever doesn't get passed is lost. So in this case the beginning potential before baby is born is

Mom Shown Lightwave/Mom Hid OFW + Dad Shown Plush/Dad Hid Dreamy = Baby Shown/Baby Hid

If Baby shows Dreamy from Dad, you cross off Plush
Mom Shown Lightwave/Mom Hid OFW +XXX/Dad Hid Dreamy = Baby Shown Dreamy/Baby Hid

You cross anything from Mom dominant to Dreamy
XXX/Mom Hid OFW + XXX/Dad Hid Dreamy = Baby Shown Dreamy/Baby Hid OFW

That leaves your 1 + 1 = 2 (Dreamy/OFW)
Dom is on top: Dreamy
All else is lost: Lost Plush & Lightwave

We have three very important things with Macintosh that I wanted.
1. I know OFW is the hid
2. I had a shown fur I liked, the genesis fur was lost forever. Anything more dominant than the shown fur is lost forever.
3. We have a boy I liked.

Pairing up a gen fur with a hidden fur cat with a nongenesis fur shown increases your chances from 25% to 50% that you will get a nongenesis fur on their child. I liked that 50% odds much better. The sibling to sibling works 25% of the time but that 25% does not come like clockwork.

Pairing an OFW hid with an OFW showing also increased my chance from 25% to 50% to get the whisker out.

A 50/50 chance was great. I could see the end of the light and so it seemed. I left Theresa behind and gave her sister a chance to step up. Now understand what I am doing was pairing the child Macintosh with this mom Theresa. That gives you a 50% chance which is why it is recommended. However, Theresa and I had issues. I don't know what her deal was. Maybe she didn't like me comparing her to her brother. Don't tell me it's just a computer program and it doesn't have issues. She had serious issues. She threw gen fur at me the way some people threw dishes.

(for people who feel confused because they think they have seen this before. You did. I am breaking up a very long post into 3 pieces. I just thought it might be easier to read that way. Sorry for any confusion)

Clutching the 50/50 fur and 50/50 whisker chance in had, I dropped Theresa and paired Macintosh with her sister Bridgetta. Just think of this as Mother to Child pairing. It is the same idea because Bridgetta is very similar to her sister but a lot nicer. Theresa was a brat throwing her genesis fur twice as often as the odds dictated. (And don't give me that look. Bridgettta was nicer. She threw her hidden fur 2 out 3 times or 66% compared to her sister 1 out of 4 or 25%. So there.)

Theresa and Macintosh gave me this



And look at that. Sighs happily

Black Bengal Fur + OFW and the rest of the package is not so bad

Let's break it down

Theresa has Gen Domino shown and Foxie S&P or better hid
Macintosh has Coffee shown and Black Bengal or better hid

1 + 1 = 2, Dom is on top and you lose the rest

Fur: Francine's has Black Bengal from Dad. So now we know for sure Dad has Black Bengal hid. Coffee and Gen Domino are forever from her. She will have Foxie S&P or better hid.

Eyes: Strawberry Bell can't be from Dad since he has Ody Bell. So we know Mom Bridgetta's hid is Strawberry Bell. Francine will have Ody Bell or more recessive from Dad for her hid.

Tail: Fussy could be from either side since it is recessive to both showns. So Francine's hid can only be Fussy or more recessive. Also that means Bridgetta and Macintosh has Fussy or something more recessive hid.

Ears: Mysterious. Both Mom and Dad had it. Actually on this line, the ears are going to be my next project. Maybe Ody rounded boo boo. They make the cats look a bit like teddy bears. So cute!

Whisker: White is from Mom so Dad will pass the hid, Black or something better.

finally triumph: Whisker shape: Odyssey FrazzyWave!!! Geez louise.

Now look up at Bridgetta's father, Francine's grandfather Lionel. Look what we got rid of on the way. He had genesis fur, eyes, ears, whisker color. We managed to change all that even with having double genesis on the fur. All that genesis is gone forever in Francine. And I didn't do it by throwing in the towel and buying a readymade cat (which I thought about at times but was damned if I was going to let this family beat me). I put Francine with her father and we even fixed the whisker color



So this is the saga of one dynasty. You can see that, no matter how convoluted it got, really I followed 3 rules
1 + 1 = 2 (figuring out hiddens is my favorite hobby)
dom is on top
which I adjusted on the way to Dom is on top and you lose the rest (this counts as 2 rules so 3 total)

So if you are looking at a box kitty and you see the pedigree
Baby has Exotic Breeze
Mom has Exotic Breeze --- Dad has Dry Olive
Mom's Dad had Onyx and Mom's Mom had Exotic Breeze
Dad's Mom had Onyx and Dad's Dad had Dry Olive
Given that Onyx is dominant to Dry Olive and recessive to Exotic Breeze

Can you get Onyx?
1. Who did Baby get Exotic Breeze from?
2. Who will give Baby the hidden eyes
3. if Dad has Dry Olive shown, can Dad pass anything more dominant than Dry Olive?


Answer:
1. Exotic Breeze from Mom
2. 1 + 1 = 2. Hidden Eyes have to come from Dad
3. Dom is on top and you lose the rest. Dad can only pass Dry Olive or more recessive (nothing is known to be more recessie at this time) so Onyx is lost in the Dad. He cannot pass it.
...... Hopefully your answer will be baby cannot have Onyx hidden.

Hope this helps you to A) change traits to more recessive traits and B) be able to look at a pedigree and figure out who passed what and which traits were lost or still possible.

Reminder
Use Saga's and Fabio's charts

Saga's charts

Fabio's chart

And please, please, because those charts are so important, please participate. If you have proof something is in the wrong place, send the proof to them. If you have a pedigree that fine-tunes where a new trait falls, post the info here in the forum and send the proof to them. Seriously without accurate information, we cannot make good judgement calls and we need everybody to help make it accurate.

Okay, all that's left to say is

The End