KittyCatS! Community Forum

I'm appalled that this conversation is even happening.

I'm going to repeat something I wrote in September:

Ivy Norsk Wrote:1) Adults do not ask other adults (total strangers at that) for permission to engage in hobby activities that they enjoy; they just do it according to their own schedules.

2) Arts Councils in cities DO coordinate schedules so that the Opera and the Ballet and Symphonies are not running major performances on the same nights. Even so, there is inevitable overlap, and all theatre groups have performances on Fri. Sat, and often Sunday in direct competition with other theatre groups. They may talk to each other to minimize the blow and stagger openings, but ultimately, there's more than one thing running at any given time.

3) Warner Brothers and Disney and the other major movie studios DO look carefully at what the others are doing for release weekends for summer blockbusters more than a year in advance. They do not ask for permission. But they do craft opening strategies.

I can appreciate that the CoOp is trying to act as an Arts Council and coordinate things. That seems to me to be a good goal. I am not an auctioneer nor part of any of these negotiations, so I don't know the specifics of what is going on or who is doing it, but what I'm hearing sounds like people are trying to make a binding schedule. With the very large numbers of markets and sims involved, that's a really high goal and likely doomed. But it could never have been more than voluntary anyway.

Am I way off to say it is each market on it's own?
I don't know I am new to this maybe solidarity can be enforced as suggested.
But ultimately the sim owner needs to be able to pay the sim fees and owes it's customers/ renters real traffic and sales otherwise they quit renting.
To me this means also organizing attractions at prime time such as auctions when and how long their clients want.
I am still new so I investigate markets to see which community speaks to me and I'd like to join.
To me it is only natural I will be supportive to the events my market is organizing as well as my fellow merchants on that market just so I give back to that community.
That because it is in that market and it's community (of friends) best interest.

(10-15-2014 04:59 PM)Deerne Resident Wrote: [ -> ]Am I way off to say it is each market on it's own?
I don't know I am new to this maybe solidarity can be enforced as suggested.
But ultimately the sim owner needs to be able to pay the sim fees and owes it's customers/ renters real traffic and sales otherwise they quit renting.
To me this means also organizing attractions at prime time such as auctions when and how long their clients want.
I am still new so I investigate markets to see which community speaks to me and I'd like to join.
To me it is only natural I will be supportive to the events my market is organizing as well as my fellow merchants on that market just so I give back to that community.
That because it is in that market and it's community (of friends) best interest.

I think you are right, Deerne.
As much as I want think of this community as one big cuddling family the facts are different when money is involved.
There are little niches of friends who stick together in one or the other community/ market wether we like that or not.
CoOp is idealistic and done with good intentions I believe but I agree with Ivy here it is and should be volunteerly to join forces like that.
I hope they succeed I doubt it a little at the same time.
It is just human nature to bound with similar minded friends to share the kitty joy with who frequently united within a market.
I have my favorite market as well I like to support and I think everone else who breeds commercial has this as well.
Although sales are not as good as they were I still rent there because it feels like the club I belong to.

(10-15-2014 04:59 PM)Deerne Resident Wrote: [ -> ]Am I way off to say it is each market on it's own?
I don't know I am new to this maybe solidarity can be enforced as suggested.
But ultimately the sim owner needs to be able to pay the sim fees and owes it's customers/ renters real traffic and sales otherwise they quit renting.

True cooperation cannot be forced, as all worthy endeavors it hinges on the parties' sincere intentions...the goals must be clear. And yes, the sim owners must be able to make tier and drive traffic to support renters. But let me quickly add that ANY time Anyone mentions $$ there is a flood of "i dont care about money, I just want to enjoy my hobby and its a hobby not a business". That may sound good, but its a bit altruistic. So, which is it? It is both, imo. It is a hobby that entails exchanging Real Money for Fake Money LOL. And That we do because we love our hobby. But there is no denying either aspect of KC.

Both the buyers and sellers, whether sim owners, auctioneers or just occasional buyers of pets are part of that big business or if the term is more pc "hobby where we dont care about the money but need it" giggles.

(10-15-2014 04:59 PM)Deerne Resident Wrote: [ -> ]To me this means also organizing attractions at prime time such as auctions when and how long their clients want.
I am still new so I investigate markets to see which community speaks to me and I'd like to join.
To me it is only natural I will be supportive to the events my market is organizing as well as my fellow merchants on that market just so I give back to that community.
That because it is in that market and it's community (of friends) best interest.

I totally understand what you are saying but am not sure I know if you are referring to "markets" and "community" as individual sims...And if that is the case, then why do we need a co-op if we are to remain divided? It is a divided market that to me signals lack of synergy needed to join more than one force to create a bigger stronger one than the sum total of all. To me, and this is just Me, Community is All the sims where KC is. I dont like to look at it as a market but rather The Market. And if i limited myself to a single sim, or group, I know I would not only miss out on alot of great things but also on a lot of friends I would never meet, and connections that were never made. ... I hope I am explaining this well. I really am trying to understand what some replies mean.

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Quote:I'm appalled that this conversation is even happening.

I agree...but i think in many ways i feel it more appalling that it is necessary.
Ideally, we could all just sort of let things flow naturally and not run aground every few months...but its not an ideal world. For better or worse, which depends on if one is a new market or old one, there are new markets opening up all over. And just because the status quo has been in place for years does not mean we cannot progress...shoot...we started out bloodletting and and trying to find the homunculus responsible for our illnesses... but when new things developed we either accepted them or not, at our own peril or to our own benefit. So far all i see is that the longer the silence about these persistent problems, the louder the complaints when it blows up. So, clearly the solution is not to ignore the elephant in the living room til the pile of dung is too big to walk around hahaha

Quote:Adults do not ask other adults (total strangers at that) for permission to engage in hobby activities that they enjoy; they just do it according to their own schedules.

They may talk to each other to minimize the blow and stagger openings, but ultimately, there's more than one thing running at any given time

Warner Brothers and Disney and the other major movie studios DO look carefully at what the others are doing for release weekends for summer blockbusters more than a year in advance. They do not ask for permission. But they do craft opening strategies.

You have given examples of attempts to cooperate. And i think thats what this thread is about, isnt it? Not permission. I dont ask permission to do things I honestly feel are ok or which i wouldnt mind others doing.

Quote:I can appreciate that the CoOp is trying to act as an Arts Council and coordinate things. That seems to me to be a good goal. I am not an auctioneer nor part of any of these negotiations, so I don't know the specifics of what is going on or who is doing it, but what I'm hearing sounds like people are trying to make a binding schedule.

Binding schedule? No, there should always be room for cooperation and flexibility. In fact, just this week i got a message from another auctioneer asking if I was interested in an auction time close to mine. She was sweet and thoughtful and it allowed me to modify my own schedule to do things in a way that took a little pressure and hustle out of the way of auction patrons. She didnt have to do that, but she did and I recognized and appreciated that. No one Told her she had to, or that she Could Not. She did something nice without anything Binding her to that. Just as I have done in the past and many others here have done as well. The last place i worked i left with some times I was using but thought they could use. I was not bound to, but wth...if flexibility can create good will, why not?

It seems to me that the auctioneers should form a group of their own, perhaps as a adjunct body to the marketplace co-op. Certainly as a cooperative effort.

back when i started at TRU (TraitsRus) most auctions and markets stood alone, i think i was one of the first auctioneers to do more than one sim by helping crazy german then Apache and so on , a few sims rolled into one sim to support each other as times got hard in the late summer , like it is about now , and worked together . Recently ive seen the Kittycat coop where sims help and join also , community is important but was way more important intially , as with all things as its grown the bickering has got worse and some seem to think they are better than others , which is wrong we are all different in our ways and we all go came into life the same as we go out ! , as for times if you join a sim and take a time the sim has already and then leave that time should remain with the sim , just as in if you take your times there you should be allowed to take it on with you should you part ways, my time is not being used by me so its used by the sim for someone else it does not belong to me otherwise we would have lots of empty auctions when auctioneers take breaks or leave again its communication agreement and respect . Tad has a good point but this has been done previously and its so hard when alot come and go so fast and alot dont have the group space to add such groups , good old fashion communication is all that is needed and lots of smilessssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Also Brunabug Nightfire does a amazing job of keeping the schedule upto date and contacting sims /auctioneers , for the love of kittycats nothing more she does not get paid for this service , this should also be remembered in considering changes

Scheduling needs to be about the auctioneers not the market owners because it is NOT the market owners putting in the time or taking time from RL to be there to do the auction itself.
And if there is overlap its up to the customer to chose where they want to be and when. Said it many times before: more than one band plays in a city on any given evening at several/many different venues. You create your following and your fans. To make the auction times owned by the market is ridiculous unless the market owner is in fact doing all of the auction prep and paying the auctioneers. THis is SL not RL and every one has a RL or at least I do. I can't do an auction based on YOUR schedule. It has to work with mine and why should I give up auctioning because I can't fit my RL around your SL schedule? lol.

Everyone needs to stop freaking out about petty issues. Bottom line: if you have an auction be courteous to the one before and the one after as much as you humanly can. Treat each other with some courtesy and respect. There are people who may like coming to my auction and not someone else's and visa versa. Its preference of the client that keeps them at the auction. This day and this day is when I auction at this place or that place...be there or be square. Thats all. Its not rocket science nor should it feel like the military.

Remember that the auctioneer puts in more than the hour long auction time to be prepared for an auction and as it is we get paid very very little for this service...its really not a lot when you do the math. On a good day ...a really good day I make 4 to 5k which is about 20 to 25 dollars. On an average day its about 10 to 15 bucks Rl money. Each auction with all the time added up takes at least 4 hours...that is at the very minimum to prepare/market/network/set up/sales and the actual auction time. Sometimes its much more. You add a bunch of petty rules to this and honestly whats the point. If Im donating the time to the auction then it needs to fit my RL.

Im lucky because I work for a Market owner that gives me many perks and makes it well worth my while to be dedicated to her market... but many don't. The one other Market I have an auction on i get a tonne of help from the Owners there with creating my space and my rental panels and huds etc. These people are giving back to me and so it is a joy to work for them. But never once have they asked me to move over there or change this one or that one unless it works for EVERYONE. I have never felt like I was owned by them. And they have never expected to own my spots.

I really appreciate Vampi's take on this. And in fact will add this to what she said.

Auctioneers...good ones are not common or easy to find. Its a special kind of person that will dedicate their time energy and devotion to an auction for little to no renumeration. This is SECOND life not RL. My most valuable commodity is my time. REAL LIFE TIME. If I am going to dedicate it to doing auctions in SL, that will be the bloody day someone will act like they own me or dictate to me when I can or when I can't have fun on SL. If i make a private deal with a market owner of my choice to work exclusively for them then I do it because it works for me and for them. If this were real life even at 20 bucks an hour i would be raking in 100 bucks, if it were a signing gig it would be closer to 200 and at my current job i would be making about 500 for the amount of time i put in...IF IT WERE REAL LIFE! Its not! So don't expect in SL what you would expect in RL when it comes to a service we basically do for fun and a little extra linden spending money. SL IS supposed to be fun. If the markets were paying the auctioneer's big bucks to do something like this then I could see how they might be able to dictate what/when/where. But we, as the auctioneer create our own revenue. We have to market/network/prepare/supply gifts/and spend the hours actually doing the auction. This is my SL and I get to have fun in it and do what I want to do.

I'm here cause I want to be. This is when I work. It works for me and the market Im on...the rest is a mute point. If its not working for YOUR market you are free to do your own thing as I am free to do mine. SL is a big big big place. Why is it that KittyCats is the only place I see issues with auctions? How bout live and let live? And if you have problems with that then YOU have problems ...not me.

At the end of the day, my times are my own not owned by a Market. If I leave the market they are still my times. After all I decide when I will be on SL not you.

And i think we all owe Bree a Huge Kudo's! The way Bree has the schedule set up is just fine. She makes a spreadsheet based on information...she doesn't own the schedule. Markets don't own the schedule. And the only part of the schedule any one person can take ownership of is the auctioneer of their own time slot even if it overlaps with someone else. When Breed does the schedule all she asks is that you have your venue already arranged when you put your name down on it. As I said the schedule is just a spread sheet its not a law and honestly we all need to be grateful that we have someone that will do it for us.

So ya I totally disagree with anyone thinking we need to complicate the schedule with a lot of rules and regulations...booo on that.

After reading all replies so far I would like to share my thoughts as well.

First I think there should be no rules because nobody should be forced into anything, most people are in SL to have fun en enjoy their time doing things they like to do. Instead of rules there can be ccoperation and agreements.
About the time schedule, I think we can compare auctioneers with DJ's and KC Sim owners with Club Owners. That's why I think that it would be better to have the timespots in the schedule controlled by simowners, and equally devided to the several sims. Beside that there could be a pool with auctioneers, every auctioneer has her/his own preferable working times, so if there would be a schedule with times that auctioneers are available, simowners would be able to see who is available and there can be an agreement between the simowner and the auctioneer. At the end the simowners are paying the tiers for the sim and have a responsibility agains the renters. Auctioneers are proffessionals who hire themself to the simowners, it should not be the other way around.

The second thing is overlapping auctions. I really think that a professional auctioneer should be able to finish an auction within an hour. Of course there can be exceptions, but if all auctioneers would respect the other auctioneers, just like they would be respected themselfes they would do everything to keep their auction time within the scheduled time, that is why there is an schedule after all.

But for me the most important thing is working together and not against eachother, the market is difficult at the moment, but only with good cooperation and agreements we can help eachother and help the community.

(10-16-2014 11:51 AM)Ronald Dunheved Wrote: [ -> ]The second thing is overlapping auctions. I really think that a professional auctioneer should be able to finish an auction within an hour. Of course there can be exceptions, but if all auctioneers would respect the other auctioneers, just like they would be respected themselfes they would do everything to keep their auction time within the scheduled time, that is why there is an schedule after all.

But for me the most important thing is working together and not against eachother, the market is difficult at the moment, but only with good cooperation and agreements we can help eachother and help the community.

I would like to point out that auctions are not all about how fast they are done. I have had some great time and enjoyed myself as breeder and seller on auctions that lasted up to 2 hours. They were educative, entertaining and manage to get people to forget how much time passed and how long it took on a panel.
I am not type who prefers to see fast auctions and just a quick read through on the kitty, I like auctioneer noticing my or someone elses hard work on the kitty, and give at least more than few mins informing us how hard was it to manage such combination of traits, what could we possibly see and so on. but that's just my personal opinion I of course understand not everyone wants or can devote so much time, but for what im getting in that time, I make it an effort to try and stay for whole event, cant say its only an auction, it sure is more like event.

i am also against any restrictions and set of rules for the auctioneers and their times, if an auctioneer is good they will have people attending be it 10 mins, 50 mins or 3 hours. theres reason why people keep returning. Im sure no one would love to have their time at same time as someone and then have their auction half empty, if they want so, why should anyone stop them from doing it? I know when we as sim look for times for events and auctions we look because we dont want our events or auctions empty, not because we have a set of rules telling us so, its just a simple common sense that makes a community healthy

this is not going directly at anyone, just a share of my personal opinion